A couple 'royal' questions for you . . .

Discussion in 'General' started by threebecamefive, Apr 30, 2011.

  1. threebecamefive

    threebecamefive Well-Known Member

    So, I DVR'd the wedding and had full intentions of zipping through most of it. I really just wanted to see her dress, the new couple together and snipets of some of the hoopla. Instead, I have to admit, I found myself watching much more than I ever dreamed of! I stayed up until mid-night (I was seriously propping my eye lids open to stay awake . . . way past my bedtime!) watching what I had recorded!! I :wub: how William and Kate really seemed happy and in love with each other. While they were seemingly following royal protocol in all areas, I enjoyed seeing the looks exchanged between them and the little things they said to each other. It just seemed so sweet and real.

    So here are a few of my questions:
    1. Why is Kate, aka Catherine, now a Duchess of xxxx instead of Princess of xxxx? Why does it matter that she now be called Catherine instead of Kate? Hasn't she been Kate most/all of her life?
    2. Why, if a daughter is going to be next in line to the throne and then becomes Queen (Queen Elizabeth II), why isn't her husband then a King (Prince Phillip, instead of King Phillip)? If a son is next in line to the throne, his wife then becomes Queen, right? Why doesn't that work both ways?
    3. When is Queen Elizabeth giving up her throne? Any hints as to a time frame? Will Charles for sure become King, or will/can he be skipped over? If/when Charles does become King, Camilla will not become Queen because of divorce, or something like that . . . am I correct?

    Please excuse my ignorance on these questions. Also, if I addressed any of the above individuals incorrectly, I apologize.
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  2. Heathermomof5

    Heathermomof5 Well-Known Member

    I appreciate you for asking!!! I have been wondering the same things!!!!
  3. rissakaye

    rissakaye Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    You'll need Kendra or Hollie for all of the particulars.

    My understanding is that titles are given out by the Queen. To have the title of "Prince" or "Princess", my understanding is that only those of royal blood can receive those titles. Diana was NOT "Princess Diana". That was given to her by the media. She was Diana, Princess of Wales. It's a fine distinction. I don't know why the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. My assumption is that when Prince Charles becomes king, William will inherit the title of "Prince of Wales" as the heir to the throne and then Catherine will become "Catherine, Princess of Wales". Some of the royals choose not to accept titles for their children. Princess Anne choose for her children Zara and Peter not to the title of Prince and Princess. They were entitled to it being of royal blood. But by not receiving the titles, they are also taken off the rolls where they would receive taxpayer money.

    Heredity through the throne is through male preferentially, then female. Queen Elizabeth only had a sister, so there was no male heir when her father abdicated. The title of King is bestowed at the pleasure of the Queen. Conversely, when Charles is King, he can decide whether or not Camilla receives the title of Queen. It is not automatic. Prince Philip is actually of the royal house of Greece from when they had a monarchy. He had to renounce his titles there to become Prince Philip, Duke of Edinbergh (I think). Typically, when the thrown goes to a female to become Queen, there is no King, just Prince. It has to do with the idea that if he is the King, then as the head of the household/obeying part of the wedding vows, then he would have potentially more power than the Queen. I believe the same happened with Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. She was Queen, but he was never King. It's to keep clear recognition of the authority of the head of the monarchy.

    I don't think Queen Elizabeth will abdicate. Her father abdicated (to marry a divorcee) and I think that left an impression on Queen Elizabeth. Charles will become the next King unless he chooses to abdicate, which I really don't think he will. Camilla will become Queen if he chooses to give her that title. (His interviews seem to indicate he will.)

    Hollie and Kendra can probably better answer things, but this is my understanding of it.

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  4. ckreh

    ckreh Well-Known Member

    The one thing we were talking about at work yesterday is that when Charles becomes King we thought when he divorced Diana to marry Camilla he gave up the right for her to be Queen. Basically something similar to when the Queen's father gave up his throne. We thought Camilla would be a princess or duchess, but couldn't find an answer when we googled it.

    We did find a website that showed the succession to the 154th place. I can't believe that it is mapped out that far.

    We were also wondering why when other monarchy or presidential marriages occur there is no where near the media coverage that the British ones receive. One channel has something like a 4-day coverage. It is just crazy coverage that goes way over the top.
  5. twin_trip_mommy

    twin_trip_mommy Well-Known Member

    from what I heard yesterday her title is Her royal highness, princess Catherine, duchess of Cambridge.

    I think she was born Catherine but she took on the nick name Kate. I heard nick names are not used when you are royalty though.

    I could be wrong though. Kendra will most likely share when she sees the thread
  6. rissakaye

    rissakaye Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Camilla is currently the Duchess of Cornwall. If she doesn't get the title of Queen, she would likely be Princess Consort.

    I had thought the divorce had specifically state that Diana would not be Queen.

    The biggest problem to Camilla becoming Queen seems much more to be the attitude of the British people towards her. My understanding is the most people blame her for the break-up of Charles and Diana and the last poll I saw said only 14% of the British people supported Camilla becoming Queen. Since they're polling about Camilla becoming Queen, it does seem to be a possiblity. If the divorce had excluded that option, it wouldn't even by up for a matter of public opinion.

  7. SKTwinMom

    SKTwinMom Well-Known Member

    That was her uncle, Edward VIII. That's how her father became King, he died as King.
  8. ckreh

    ckreh Well-Known Member

    We were talking about this at work yesterday too. I think most people prefer/preferred Diana to Camilla and have judgments over the whole situation from the divorce to Diana's tragic death. I don't think she will ever have the love of the people like Diana did.
  9. rissakaye

    rissakaye Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Thanks for correcting that. I knew it didn't sound quite right when I typed it, but I had the "I'm hungry" chorus going on behind me.

  10. threebecamefive

    threebecamefive Well-Known Member

    Wow, thanks for all the info. I guess I hadn't realized there was a difference between "Princess Diana" and "Diana, Princess of Wales". Now I understand, I think, why some royal watchers get so annoyed by that. Maybe I'm still off though. :blush:

    I didn't realize Charles would get to decide whether Camilla would be Queen when he became King. If I were her, and if he decided against it, I'm thinking I'd be a bit offended and ticked off. He'd be sleeping on the royal couch!

    Makes sense about the Queen/King now. I guess I wasn't thinking along 'power' lines . . . which in hindsight seems like a silly thing for me to not have thought of!

    Still say though, if I was "Kate" for my whole life, switching to "Catherine" because of royal tradition would be really hard to do! My given name is "Kristina", but I have always been "Kristi". I had a summer job 6 years ago and they made my name badge "Kristina" because that was what I had put on my application. I decided to go with it and see if it made me feel differently, or if I like it. I really disliked it. Every time someone called me "Kristina" my first thought was, "Oh crap, I'm in trouble!" You know, when I was a kid in trouble it was always "Kristina!" :lol: I never got used to it, disliked it the whole summer, and that was just one more reason I was really happy to be done with that summer job!

    Kendra, I look forward to hearing what you have to share/add about any of this. I know you're our resident go-to royal info person. :good:
  11. Heathermomof5

    Heathermomof5 Well-Known Member

    Another question will Will and kate's children ( assuming they have kids) be king or queen before Harry ? If they are old enough if the time comes . Or how will they fall in line?
  12. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Aruggggggg! I lost my long book post!

    Deep breath, start again.
  13. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Her given name is Catherine Elizabeth but was nick named Kate. I'm sure her friends and family will still call her Kate but officially she is Catherine and that is what I'm going with too. Queen Elizabeth's father was George VI but he always went by Bertie to his family (a nick name for Albert)

    Think of it as a deck of cards, the King is the highest then Queen then Jack. It takes it form from royalty. A King is higher than a Queen so a reigning King can have a Queen under him but a reigning Queen can't have a non-reigning King over her. There are 3 reigning Queen's right now Elizabeth, Margareth in Denmark (her husband is Prince Henrik) and Beatrix in The Netherlands (her husband died in 2002 but was Prince Claus)

    She will never abdicate. She is Queen until she dies. (in some countries they do abdicate but not England) She is 85 now and is in great shape so hopefully she'll be around for a long time.

    Charles will be King if he is still alive when Elizabeth dies. No question of skipping, it isn't possible. I think he'll be a great King. He has been in training all his life. William doesn't have the skills to do it yet anyway.

    As the wife of the King, Camilla will be Queen. She will probably go by Princess Consort though because they are sensitive to the Diana fans. (hence why she isn't going by Princess of Wales now)
    6 people like this.
  14. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    You did a great job Marissa. A few tiddle bits though.

    A Prince is the son of the Monarch or the grandson of the Monarch in the male line (meaning his father is a son of the Monarch. None of their wives become Princess FirstName when they marry them There are lots of fiddly rules after that depending on titles that I won't get into because they are really confusing.

    A Princess is the daughter of the Monarch or the granddaughter of the Monarch in the female line. After the granddaughter their children take their title (if one) from their father. (there are only 4 Princess right now - Anne (granddaughter of the Monarch) Alexandra (granddaughter of George V) Beatrice and Eugenie (granddaughter of Elizabeth II) The Queen CAN create Princesses but she has only done it once and she isn't going to do it for someone who has an active title.

    It is a fine one and one I could rant on about all day but I'll spare you.

    I don't know why the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge.

    Cambridge was vacant so the Queen gave it to Prince William.

    Not quite. Prince of Wales is the traditional title for the heir to the throne but the Monarch has to give it to their child. Charles received it in 1969 in a giant ceremony.
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  15. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Not quite. After the daughter of the Monarch, the children only take the their title (if any) from their father. Anne's first husband Mark was offered a title but they refused it so their children are only Mr and Miss.

    Holly can talk more about the money stuff. I'm lost most of the time on that.

    But by not receiving the titles, they are also taken off the rolls where they would receive taxpayer money.

    It is not automatic (and it has been refused in the past) but she will technically be Queen as the wife of the King. (see my previous mention of Camilla)

    Prince Philip was born a Prince. I'm not sure all that went on with his titles and stuff but he is the Duke of Edinburgh. (see above about the card suits)
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  16. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    William and Catherine's children will fall between William and Harry in the line of succession. There is a lot of talk of changing the rules to first come first serve regardless of gender but for now, the sons will go before the daughters. (in Queen Elizabeth's family the children came Charles, Anne, Andrew then Edward but in succession it runs Charles and heirs, Andrew and heirs, Edward and heirs then Anne and heirs)


    I think that's everything. Thank you Marissa for putting some good stuff out there too.


    I personally like Charles. Take his sex life out of everything and he rocks. Camilla is a good woman. Mistakes were made in the past but like everything, 3 sides of the story - his, hers and the truth. It just so happens hers was more vocal (and prettier) so it gets the most weight.
    4 people like this.
  17. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Forgot this

    I think it is more of a celebrity thing coming from Diana. Sure there was a hoopla made before but the celebrity really ramped it up with her. No offense to anyone but I doubt that many people not interested in royal watching would be able to name more than a passing few of any royals beyond Diana and her immediate people. They just don't make news. Maybe Monaco because of Grace Kelly but even that is disappearing into the far past now.

    I can tell you that there is a lot of hoopla surrounding other royals, you just have to know where to look and it won't be anything beyond maybe a blurb on the nightly news in mainstream media USA.
  18. threebecamefive

    threebecamefive Well-Known Member

    Again, wow! Thanks, Kendra.

    And you're right, for me anyway. I don't think I would have ever paid much attention to the monarchy if it hadn't been for all the press about Diana. I have no opinions about any of them though, good or bad. I don't feel I know enough to form an opinion. Right now it's just fun to watch.

    I do appreciate your opinion about Charles though. It did seem he got a bit of a bad rap because of the world's fascination/love with Diana. She's been gone long enough, it seems, that what little I see/hear about him now days is a bit more positive.
  19. MrsWright

    MrsWright Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Ok, this might be the most ignorant question you receive but...they train to be King/Queen? I'm confused what their role is in the government compared to your Prime Minister who I associate with the same as our President.
  20. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    I think a lot of it (popularity) is that it's Great Britain. In general, Americans tend to know more about what's happening in England politics and public culture wise than we do other countries. Partly our past history with England. Partly that we share a language.
  21. TwinRichard

    TwinRichard Well-Known Member

    They train in the sense that they are involved in many of the processes and ceremonial roles of the monarchy from a young age. Prince Charles has assumed many ceremonial responsibilities for the several decades.

    The monarch is head of state while the Prime Minister is head of government. The monarch has to give royal assent to any legislation passed by the government. This is effectively equivalent to the power of veto of the U.S. president. The monarch also has a number of other powers including the power to dismiss the Prime Minister and ask the leader of the opposition to form government although this generally isn't exercised. These powers are exercised by the Governor General in the other Commonwealth Realms. In practice the monarch does not generally interfere in the passing of legislation and the running of the government but they do provide an important check on the power of the government.

    I assume when you are talking about "English politics" you are in fact talking about the politics of the United Kingdom? It is certainly not the same thing particularly since Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland now have devolved parliaments.
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  22. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    What he said about the political power. ^^^ A Prime Minister is just that, the first minister to the crown.

    About the training. Queen Elizabeth has been Queen since Churchill. Who else has been active at the top of the game since the early 60? Very few. The current Prime Minister could go to her at their weekly meeting and ask a question on what the thinking was about something that was done before he was born and she'll be able to tell him. (no one knows what the Queen and the Prime Minister talk about) The Queen gets briefings every day in a red leather box. Every day including holidays and when she is on "vacation" or on tour.
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  23. TwinPeshi

    TwinPeshi Well-Known Member

    I think the confusion (for Americans) is due to the fact that in the United States the president is the head of state and the head of government. In many other countries these are two different people. This is true not only in constitutional monarchies (UK and commonwealth realms, The Netherlands, Belgium, etc) but also in republics (France, Israel, Russia, Ireland among others).
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  24. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Yes, I was. Typing too quickly on my phone.
  25. cheezewhiz24

    cheezewhiz24 Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Thank you to the OP who posted this! The replies have been fascinating and DH & I were just debating yesterday about the role of the monarchy.
  26. Mama_Kim

    Mama_Kim Well-Known Member

    Kendra, you rock!
    1 person likes this.
  27. Twin nanny

    Twin nanny Well-Known Member

    I think people pretty much covered everything technical. I just wanted to weigh in on the Kate/Catherine thing; my understanding is that her family and friends mostly call her Catherine anyway. The Kate thing came from the media (especially certain sections that want to make her seem more common/ordinary). It is the same way that they refer to William as Will or even Wills. They like to write Wills and Kate, I think they want to make it seem like they're nice 'normal' people you could have as friends. I think it does come from the whole "people's princess" Diana thing, they like to cast William as being 'in touch with the people' and Catherine as being 'one of us'.
    Harry's given name is Henry of course. I think that would be a strange change for people (including him) as he is always called Harry, by his family and the public/media.
    Also we just like to give our royals nicknames when talking about them between ourselves. It's not uncommon for people to refer to Prince Charles as Charlie-boy and the Queen as Liz or Lizzie.

    Also when an heir assumes the throne they are allowed to pick which of their names (they all have multiple middle names) they want to be known by. I believe Charles has said he will use one of his middle names, although I can't now remember which one. That is why the Queen's father was King George VI but his family nickname was Bertie. He had grown up as Albert but did not want to be King Albert so he chose George instead. So when/if William inherits he will have the choice of William, Arthur, Philip or Louis (although really only William or Philip are viable from those).
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  28. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Yes. Queen Victoria's given name was Alexandrina Victoria. Victoria is the quintisential England name now but when she was born it was not well received because it sounded too German.
  29. threebecamefive

    threebecamefive Well-Known Member

    All interesting information. I'll take your word for Kate vs. Catherine because I'm not much of a royal follower and have only heard of her as Kate, but can believe how that could come about from the press. I guess I've never heard of William being referred to as anything other than William, same with Prince Charles. But can understand that if you follow the royal family more than I do, or live in England, a person may hear any/all of the previous mentioned nicknames.

    One question though. In reference to William when/if he inherits the throne (I keep typing "thrown", one of these times I'm not going to catch myself!!!), he will have the choice of William, Arthur, Philip or Louis, but that really only William or Philip are viable choices. Why?
  30. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    It's all in the way it sounds. King Arthur (is he going to build a round table?) and King Louis has all sorts of historical stuff attached to it (even if it isn't in English history) and there is the pronunciation issue there. I also can't see King Philip so really, William is his only viable option.

    Bertie took King George VI to be seen as a continuation of the stability of George V after all the turmoil surrounding the abdication crisis.
  31. twin_trip_mommy

    twin_trip_mommy Well-Known Member

    I was kind of joking earlier in a post about Catherine having a baby. I just got through reading an article about her being expected to produce an heir within the first year of marriage. WOW! I understand this is historically what has happened and is expected but she is not the typical bride to a prince. She (from what I understand) is the first bride to be a graduate of University, she is older and she kind of has... well a career. I am sure she knew this was going to be expected. I hope she is able to do what is expected and she does not have any issues becoming pregnant.
  32. cricket1

    cricket1 Well-Known Member

    They said the other day that she has always be Katherine but the press has called her Kate, fits better in the head lines. So she is asserting her opinion and taking her name back
  33. tinalb

    tinalb Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Does she? I admit to not really following these things, so I don't really know, but isn't that why some people in the press have called her Waity Katie? Because she never really had a proper job, just waited around on Prince William to ask her to marry him? Either way, I would think her only career right now is going to be fulfilling her duties as his wife (which I would imagine would be a full time job).
  34. twin_trip_mommy

    twin_trip_mommy Well-Known Member

    I thought I read that she had a job after graduating and then took a position at her parents business. I don't know how much of a career that really is but I figured if she took the time to get an education (worked for her degree) then she would then want to work.

    I do agree though that now that she is married to a prince she will no longer "have to work" and will be doing a lot of royal stuff.
  35. Kendra

    Kendra Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    The first British royal bride to graduate university. Sophie Wessex did attend secretarial college and while not a royal bride, William's cousin Peter's wife Autumn has a BA in East Asian studies). Maxima of the Netherlands was an investment banker (30 at marriage - 3 girls), Mathilde of Belgium was a speech therapist (27 at marriage - 4 children), Letizia of Spain was a journalist (32 at marriage - 2 girls), Masako of Japan was a Harvard trained economist (30 at marriage - 1 daughter and it is rumoured they needed assistance)

    Catherine doesn't have a career. She tried her hand at childrens wear designer and was a jewelery buyer at a store but it didn't last. She has worked for her parents company for the few years. In what capacity we don't know.
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