Beta Doubling Times

Discussion in 'Pregnancy Help' started by Malenkaya, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    Hello, and I apologize in advance for asking a question I'm sure you all must tire of, the idea of twins (or more) based on early HCG beta levels. So a great big thanks up front to anyone who takes the time to answer!

    Let me start by what leads me to the suspicion this might be possible for me. I got my BFP last Wednesday, which was 8 DPO. Two tests with dark, blazingly positive lines. The next day, 9 DPO, I had blood drawn for betas. My HCG was 226 and progesterone was 14.4. The doctors office actually told me those numbers were low, without even a LMP to date the pregnancy. The fear of low numbers is what lead to my reading and research over the last few days.

    I soon came to the conclusion that 226 at 9 DPO was actually quite high, and that one number by itself doesn't really mean anything. Just gave me hope that the numbers were good, but the number itself made me wonder. One of the things I hit on with high hcg were a million questions of the possibility of twins. Something that never crossed my mind. Twins don't run in my family. Okay, then I found out identical twins are not hereditary, it's just something that happens. It happens more likely to older couples (I'm 36, DH is 45) and if it's not a first pregnancy. (This is my 4th pregnancy, but I've had 2 m/c, so we just have one child, a daughter who is 13 months.) So although unlikely, I'm starting to think, not impossible, right?

    I had my numbers drawn again this morning. My HCG today is 1054, at 13 DPO, and exactly 28 days since LMP. According to the charts I see online, 28 days since LMP, the normal numbers for a singleton are 3-426. So my 1054 more than doubles the top of that. Further reading tells me that doubling times are more important when it comes to twins that the HCG alone. With my two numbers, my doubling time is more like every 36 hours than every 48-72. My first blood draw was in the late afternoon, where today's was this morning - another 6 hour difference for time of day.

    To recap:
    9 DPO: 226
    13 DPO: 1054

    I know progesterone is said to be higher with multiples, but they only tested for that the first time, with a result of 14.4. They did not retest today. I am waiting until the morning to hear from the doctor to see what they want me to do now. I may have to wait until an 8 week u/s, the thought of which at this point is pretty agonizing!

    Sorry if this all sounds crazy, but it's a thought I can't seem to shake! Anyone willing to share their beta numbers with their twins would be greatly appreciated as well. I'm mostly interested in doubling rates, because I have come to understand that means more when it comes to twins than the numbers themselves.
     
  2. Robynsegg

    Robynsegg Well-Known Member

    We were all in the same boat as you once, so I don't think that we get tired of people asking this question!

    First of all, congratulations on your pregnancy, and secondly, I hope that you get exactly what you were hoping for may it be twins or not.

    You are right, its hard to judge a twin pregnancy on Beta levels, but its a jumping off point.

    On 13 days past 5 day transfer (18DPO) my beta level was 1809, and then a week later 20 days past 5 day transfer (25DPO) my beta level was over 25,000. My doctor said that my first beta was a sure indicator to her that there was more than one in there. I had an ultrasound booked for 8 weeks, but went in at 6 weeks 4 days because of some cramping and they wanted to rule out an ectopic and that is when we found out it for sure was twins.

    Some readings will say that some women just naturally carry more HCG, but I had a very good feeling that there were more than one in there....and if you are having the same feelings....maybe you are being blessed twice!

    Keep us posted!
    Congratulations and good luck!
     
  3. faerieprncs

    faerieprncs Well-Known Member

    I have no idea what my beta numbers were since we weren't "trying" to get pregnant...but as a note, my HPT lines were VERY faint even at 11 DPO and it turned out to be twins, so you never know!
     
  4. IVF TWINS

    IVF TWINS Well-Known Member

    13DPO/8DPT =40.7 & at 16DPO/11DPT =158. DPT is days post transfer (we did a 5 day embryo transfer). My levels where about the same with my first pregnancy and my daughter was also a twin (we lost her twin at 6 weeks though). High levels dont always mean twins or higher but there really is a good chance. :)

    My levels were pretty normal and we were pregnant with twins both times.
     
  5. Surrodoula

    Surrodoula Well-Known Member

    Do you know for sure when you ovulated? Even being a couple days off can make a big difference on how those numbers look!

    I've only done betas with my surrogacy pregnancies, not my own:
    Betas ~ GSX1
    6dp5dt = 31
    9dp5dt = 178
    14dp5dt = 2291
    16dp5dt = 5504
    Singleton (single embryo transfer)

    Betas ~ GSX2
    13dp3dt = 717
    15dp3dt = 1506
    Twins (2 embryos transferred)

    As you can see they are very close, and I thought for sure that the first pregnancy was going to show twins due to the high betas and fast doubling. When my numbers were similar the second time around, but the doubling wasn't as fast, we thought it would only be one based on my previous numbers, lol! I know, I'm so helpful, right? The beta guessing game can drive you crazy!
     
  6. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    Thanks for the replies! The numbers game can definitely drive you crazy!

    QUOTE(Surrodoula @ Jun 29 2009, 11:32 PM) [snapback]1374969[/snapback]
    Do you know for sure when you ovulated? Even being a couple days off can make a big difference on how those numbers look!


    Actually I do. We've been trying for 6 months, we use OPKs and I chart online. (I don't temp.) I have a 32 day cycle and have consistantly ovulated on day 18. This past month I actually know it couldn't have happened earlier because we've been really busy, DH has been sick and so I know when it would and wouldn't have been possible. Ovulation earlier than day 17 this month and I couldn't have gotten pregnant. Another reason I thought it was weird the numbers were so high. I know being off with your date of ovulation will make a big difference and I guess I got lucky to know for sure I'm not off in my math this month.
     
  7. charityhope611

    charityhope611 Well-Known Member

    Keep us posted, I hope you get your twins if that is what you want!

    I think at 9dp5dt, so (14dpo) my numbers were around 171, then at 11dp5dt (16dpo) they were around 458. I think beta numbers can vary so much they can be high with twins low with twins, high with singletons. I got an ultrasound at 6w1d when we found out it was twins. It was a long wait.. but you will make it and see a beautiful little bean or maybe even two in there!
     
  8. Babies4Susan

    Babies4Susan Well-Known Member

    My RE only did one beta since I had such strong numbers. At 14dp3dt, my beta was 1310 and my progesterone was 94. I have read the high progesterone number is indicative of multiples, more than beta numbers. Dunno, but mine were high.
     
  9. mholmes07

    mholmes07 Well-Known Member

    I think those are high numbers as well. I had blood drawn exactly 14days past my IUI and my beta numbers were 235, which they told me could be twins and it was.
     
  10. mikesteg

    mikesteg Active Member

    There is a site called betabase.info where many couples have entered their real-life data. It's broken down by DPO and the number of live births. There is enough data there to give a good degree of confidence of your odds. We did IVF and by the 3rd round of bloodwork ( I think that was 27DPO) our numbers were so high that it was about 50/50 for twins vs. "more". We were not even on the chart for a singleton. :eek: :lol:

    That site also has a doubling time calculator so you can have a much finer notion of what yours is, without doing too much fun math. :D

    Good Luck!
    Mike
     
  11. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    QUOTE(mikesteg @ Jun 30 2009, 09:50 AM) [snapback]1375399[/snapback]
    There is a site called betabase.info where many couples have entered their real-life data. It's broken down by DPO and the number of live births. There is enough data there to give a good degree of confidence of your odds. We did IVF and by the 3rd round of bloodwork ( I think that was 27DPO) our numbers were so high that it was about 50/50 for twins vs. "more". We were not even on the chart for a singleton. :eek: :lol:

    That site also has a doubling time calculator so you can have a much finer notion of what yours is, without doing too much fun math. :D

    Good Luck!
    Mike


    Yes, I have been looking at betabase. It currently says that the highest levels being reported at 13 DPO for a singleton is 575, so I'm close to twice that. For twins it says 1823 is the highest, but 122 is still the median. My doubling time according to their calculator is 40.51. That doesn't scream twins to me, but again, the numbers vary so widely! I wish my doctor had checked the progesterone again. At 14.4 that's not high at all, although it's a good number. Of course, at 9 DPO, it has a long way to go and could be doubling like my HCG. They didn't order a second test for that so I may never know what that's doing.

    I'm very torn on what I really want, I think. Obviously healthy is most important. Our daughter was born with a rare genetic disorder (so obviously this is something we may have to deal with again) called Duarte Galactosemia. Her newborn screen came back abnormal when she was 9 days old. I had to be scraped off the ceiling when I first read about what it was (the lady who called from the doctor's office didn't even know what it was when she called - she was told to tell us what she had been screened for and set up an appointment first thing the next morning.) Turns out she has the lesser varient which just resulted in dietary restriction for the first year, which was easy enough to deal with. But I've had the health scare, so yes, healthy first.

    I think twins would be fun, but then I think of an extra hard pregnancy, the extra work and extra expense and it's kind of scary. But I'm sure the rewards are well worth it. What will be will be. It's the waiting that's driving me mad!
     
  12. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    Okay, so I talked to my mom and made the passing mention of twins, just to kind of prepare her. And because even though I'd love twins, the thought of being pregnant with twins does scare the crap out of me. So I figure the more I talk about it, the less likely it would be to actually happen. She told me that through her mother's side of the family there are several sets of fraternal twins. I had no idea.

    I'm officially way more freaked out and way more excited about this than I originally was.

    If you suspect twins and have family history to back it up, might I be more likely to get an early u/s? I know before 6 weeks or so it's pointless, but waiting until 8 weeks is going to be agony!
     
  13. garden2009

    garden2009 Well-Known Member

    Congrats on your pregnancy!
    I remember all too well how hard that wait is! We did IVF with a 5 day transfer and our bloodwork on 10 days post transfer was 460 HCG. They told me it could definitely mean twins. Then 2 days later I was retested and my levels were up to 1140.
    I would think it is very likely you could have twins in there!!! I hope you survive the wait for an u/s!! :)
     
  14. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    I just realized that I never updated this thread.

    I had the first ultrasound on 7/21. It didn't go exactly as expected. They found one baby that was dated at 6w2d, when I think it should have been 7w4d. The gal doing the u/s said they might not be able to get a heartbeat yet, but right as she said that, it came through loud and clear. It was 107, which she said was fine based on the 6w2d. Because I know my cycles are longer, I later discovered I think it should have been exactly 7 weeks. So there is still a 5 day difference.

    With DD everything was perfect across the board, so this does scare me a little. The doctor didn't seem concerned, and I go back for a second u/s tomorrow. She said she wants to make sure that we're seeing proper growth and increase of the heart rate.

    I'm no longer really expecting twins, although I've read some stories (and even seen a few u/s photos) that showed one baby at the first u/s only to have a second show up at the next one. My focus is the baby whose heart I've already heard, not so much on the twin angle anymore. Unless it can help explain the differences in the dates. Undetected twin? Vanishing twin? Would either help account for smaller measurements now?

    I'm concerned because I'm worried their dates can't be right, which means the baby is measuring behind. By their dates, conception occured on 6/21. But I'm finding that hard to believe since I got a positive pregnancy test just 4 days later, the day after that was the 226 HCG, and 4 days after that (a whopping 9 DPO by their math) it was 1054.

    So good thoughts would be appreciated as I go into the next u/s. Looking for one healthy little bean now. Anything more a welcomed miracle. I promise I'll remember to update this time!
     
  15. TwinLove

    TwinLove Well-Known Member

    Thank you for updating us. Your little bean is most definately in my thoughts. :hug: I'm hoping that the heartbeat gets stronger and you update us with great news!!!
     
  16. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    So we had the repeat u/s this morning. Still just one, measuring 7w1d, heart rate 162. So everything looks good and the doctor is happy. I'm happy with just one healthy bean, although still a bit confused about the entire incident. I asked the doctor how it's possible to get a positive on a pregnancy test 4 DPO, but she didn't blink and thought there was nothing unusual about that. I know the HCG levels vary greatly with different women and even with different pregnancies, so not much to argue about there. But a BFP at 4 DPO? Thought some of you might be interested in knowing what that looks like:

    http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm13/stasiarathbun/SSPX0210-1.jpg

    I thought that was a crazy dark line for what I thought was 8 DPO.

    Thanks again to all for the support I received here. It has been much appreciated during my days of wondering.
     
  17. TwinLove

    TwinLove Well-Known Member

    I'm glad to hear that things are looking good and that the doctor is happy with everything. I wish he could have given you more answers. :hug:

    GOod luck in your pregnancy. I hope it's a happy and healthy nine months!! :hug:
     
  18. Malenkaya

    Malenkaya Member

    I just wanted to update this topic for anyone who may read it in the future.

    The pregnancy ended in a m/c and I'm convinced my high HCG numbers were indicators of a chromosomal abnormality. It was my 4th pregnancy and 3rd loss. I had to have a D&C because it was a missed m/c and even the medication to try to get my body to handle things naturally never worked for me. The good part of that is that my doctor ran a ton of tests on me, and so far everything has been normal. I'm just waiting for results on chromosome tests for myself and from tissue obtained during the D&C.

    I don't want to scare anyone wondering about high numbers, but rather to repeat what so many people told me. Try not to make too much of the numbers - there are so many things they can mean. It could be multiples, it could be one, it could indicate problems or it could really mean nothing. I've also read several reports that say higher HCG numbers in pregnancies not assisted by fertility treatments are a better indication of multiples than pregnancies created with assistance. With so many people benefiting from fertility treatments we read a lot of stuff from people and not realize how many of these pregnancies (and the beta numbers going with them) are from these pregnancies. I know during my research about multiples the majority of beta numbers I came across were from women undergoing treatments, which makes it much harder to compare with an unassisted pregnancy. Not to mention everyone is different - so what may be high or low for you may be perfectly normal for someone else, regardless of how the pregnancy occurred!

    I think in the back of my mind I suspected something was off, but I kept hoping the reasons were good ones, and this time that just wasn't the case. I have also switched doctors, because the one I had didn't seem interested in addressing my questions, and my new doctor has been really wonderful. So I look forward to trying again and working with this doctor the next time around.

    Thanks again to everyone who was so helpful here. Maybe I'll get really lucky and actually belong here in the future. Now that I know twins do run in my family and as I get older, well, who knows!
     
  19. mholmes07

    mholmes07 Well-Known Member

    I went through fertility (IUI) and had blood drawn at exactly 14 days after my iui was done, which would be equal to 14 days past ovulation. My beta numbers were 235, so your numbers are high. good luck!!
     
  20. TwinLove

    TwinLove Well-Known Member

    :hug: I hope so. I'm sorry for your loss. :hug: :hug:
     
  21. HorseyLover

    HorseyLover Well-Known Member

    I'm so sorry for your loss. Good luck to you!!

    I did an IUI, and blood isn't drawn until 14dpo so that the fertility drugs are out of your system. So, the numbers for women with fertility treatments shouldn't be skewed if the blood is taken late enough. My HCG was 101 14dpo and then 323 15dpo.
     
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