Do you think this will offend people?

As a "believer" in GOD and Jesus, I wouldn't want to join such an exclusionary group. I would want my multiples group to be a multiples group that my Jewish and Muslim friends could be a part of. I guess I just prefer variety of friends.

I'm also wondering what "believers" you're referring to. Jews and Muslims are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Christian group. Christians are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Jewish or Muslim group. I know some will think I'm being nit picky, but I really think we should be more specific. Vague statements usually cause upset and hurt feelings.

 

QUOTE(Donita @ Apr 6 2008, 09:56 PM) [snapback]708274[/snapback]
As a "believer" in GOD and Jesus, I wouldn't want to join such an exclusionary group. I would want my multiples group to be a multiples group that my Jewish and Muslim friends could be a part of. I guess I just prefer variety of friends.

I'm also wondering what "believers" you're referring to. Jews and Muslims are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Christian group. Christians are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Jewish or Muslim group. I know some will think I'm being nit picky, but I really think we should be more specific. Vague statements usually cause upset and hurt feelings.


Thank you, Donita!

 

QUOTE(Donita @ Apr 6 2008, 08:56 PM) [snapback]708274[/snapback]
As a "believer" in GOD and Jesus, I wouldn't want to join such an exclusionary group. I would want my multiples group to be a multiples group that my Jewish and Muslim friends could be a part of. I guess I just prefer variety of friends.

I'm also wondering what "believers" you're referring to. Jews and Muslims are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Christian group. Christians are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Jewish or Muslim group. I know some will think I'm being nit picky, but I really think we should be more specific. Vague statements usually cause upset and hurt feelings.



THank you Donita! I was struggling with a reply but you have already said it beautifully!

P.S. Cheryl, I don't think non-believers would care one way or the other what a religious group wants to do. But all people, believers and non-believers alike, find deliberate exclusion hurtful. It's a natural human reaction and has nothing to do with belief.

 

QUOTE(Donita @ Apr 6 2008, 09:56 PM) [snapback]708274[/snapback]
I'm also wondering what "believers" you're referring to. Jews and Muslims are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Christian group. Christians are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Jewish or Muslim group. I know some will think I'm being nit picky, but I really think we should be more specific. Vague statements usually cause upset and hurt feelings.

Excellent point, Donita.

 

QUOTE(Donita @ Apr 6 2008, 08:56 PM) [snapback]708274[/snapback]
As a "believer" in GOD and Jesus, I wouldn't want to join such an exclusionary group. I would want my multiples group to be a multiples group that my Jewish and Muslim friends could be a part of. I guess I just prefer variety of friends.

I'm also wondering what "believers" you're referring to. Jews and Muslims are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Christian group. Christians are believers in GOD but wouldn't be comfortable in a Jewish or Muslim group. I know some will think I'm being nit picky, but I really think we should be more specific. Vague statements usually cause upset and hurt feelings.

That is fine that you would not want to join "such an exclusionary group" it is your right if you feel that way. I don't see how having that wording on the logo is "exclusionary". Thats me though a believer in God. I can't know how people who do not believe in God would feel. BTW.. I also prefer variety in my friendship. That is not what the topic is about though. It is about "Do you think this would offend people?". I answered that I do believe it would/could offend some and that I do not understand how it could hurt and offend others.

Vague statment? upset and hurt feelings? How and Why?

What does it matter what religious group I was referring to when I used the word "believer"? How does it matter? The point was if a person was a believer they could be hurt by the wording on the logo if they lost one of their multiples and they were still questioning their god on why this had to happen.

Yes, I do think you are being nit picky. Following along in the thread I would think it was clear the word "believers" was referring to those who belong to whatever religious group/church the multiples group meetings or consignment sales were being held at. In this case "The Gateway Church of Christ"

Also if you would like you can check out the definition for the word believer at this link to dictionary.com

 

I do think that this would be offensive to many and I don't believe that I was "chosen" to be a mother. I believe, thankfully, that I have an ovary that shoots out eggs like an Uzi. I don't mean to be offensive to those who are believers but I don't feel like I'm better than anyone else therefore I have kids. I'm very thankful for all that I do have but I don't give credit to any deity for that.

 

QUOTE(twin_trip_mommy @ Apr 7 2008, 12:27 AM) [snapback]708509[/snapback]
That is fine that you would not want to join "such an exclusionary group" it is your right if you feel that way. I don't see how having that wording on the logo is "exclusionary".


How would you feel if it said "Where members are chosen by Allah"?

 

I know what the word "believer" means. Don't need the link, thanks.

Believer in what? When you just say "believer" you're making an assumption that all believers are Christian. They are not all Christians. Assumptions upset and hurt feelings. Non Christian believers feel just as much love towards their religion and what they believe in as you do about Christianity.

 

QUOTE(BGTwins97 @ Apr 7 2008, 06:27 AM) [snapback]708629[/snapback]
How would you feel if it said "Where members are chosen by Allah"?
I doubt she would join. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

Though this seems to be getting a little OT, I feel the need to chime in here. Personally, the motto would not offend me, because I think it is silly. (to be honest, I think it is a little corny) The God they are talking about could be any God though, it does not specify the Christian God. The motto doesn't say, "WHere Jesus chooses our members." It is a generic "God." I think a person can interpret it any way you want. Now if you don't believe in God, than you can just choose to disagree with the motto.

Now about the believers thing. I think Sharon has a point I have never thought of before. Having grown up in the Evangelical culture, I am so used to hearing that term. We do use it a lot. However we usually use it amoung ourselves. I have never thought about how it could offend others that are fervent believers but of a different faith. They also believe as strongly about their faith as others. That being said, I think it is better to be more accurate when posting and rather than use the blanket "believer" one could maybe specify what "type" of believer they are. For example, " As a Muslim I believe... or as a follower of Christ I believe..." That might make things more clear.

It is way to early for me to be posting without my cup of coffee, so I hope that made sense.

 

It made perfect sense. Thanks, Cristina!

 

QUOTE(Donita @ Apr 7 2008, 07:00 AM) [snapback]708656[/snapback]
I doubt she would join. Thank you for pointing that out.

Don't speak (or type) for me as though you know what I would or would not do.

How would I feel? I would not feel offended, excluded or insulted. It would not bother me.

I used the word "believer" in the same way the MOTC used the word "God". And I used it to answer the question "Do you think this will offend people?". I also expanded on the word "believer" in the post I used the word in originally
QUOTE
I guess I can see where that logo would cause some to not want to join that group. If one is a non believer then they may not want to join a group that could be filled with beleivers (members who do not have the same thoughts on life as you).

I can see how it could hurt the feelings of those who may have lost a multiple. If the person is a believer then they may still be questioning "Why did God choose for this to happen to me" But, if they are not a believer then honestly I don't understand how this would hurt or offend them.

The only way to know what the spicific beliefs of the group are is to look into the church it is affiliated with or visit the group. If it is not something you like then you do not have to attend again.

I did not mean to offend, upset or hurt anyone with the use of the word believer. It is a word I use often (just as Christina shared about herself).

 

I did a quick search for the Greater KC Moms club. I don't belong to this one. Here's the home page. Look right at the top!:

http://www.gkcmotc.com/community/

One of the moms in my weekly Gymboree class said that she wants to me to join and that she heads up the "ladies night out" group. I believe that I'll ask her about the religious aspect of the this group.

 

Cheryl, the problem with the word "believer" is that is it really only used among Born Again Christains. If you ask my DH about his religion, he will say he is a Christian, my neighbor will say she is a Catholic, I will say I am Jewish, but many Born Again Christains will say they are "bible believing Christians"--hence the term "believer". All the people believe in G-d, but only Born Again Christians chose the term "believer"--does that make sense. And that is why it is commonly used by you and Cristina.

As for the church, my guess is that the group has nothing to do with the church itself. I used to attend a local MOTC group, and it took place in a church simply because one of the founding members of the group belonged to that church and they let us use the space.

 

QUOTE(twin_trip_mommy @ Apr 7 2008, 08:53 AM) [snapback]708734[/snapback]
The only way to know what the spicific beliefs of the group are is to look into the church it is affiliated with or visit the group. If it is not something you like then you do not have to attend again.


I think that the point was that the MOTC is NOT affiliated with any church. I know our meetings are held in a church, but our group is not affiliated with that church and we have the same motto. And I have not heard or read a discussion of God, Jesus, Allah, or any other deity.

 

QUOTE(sharongl @ Apr 7 2008, 08:59 AM) [snapback]708748[/snapback]
As for the church, my guess is that the group has nothing to do with the church itself. I used to attend a local MOTC group, and it took place in a church simply because one of the founding members of the group belonged to that church and they let us use the space.
This was the case for the GKAPOTC (Greater Knoxville Area Parents of Twins Club). We held the meetings at my church because it was a central location and I was able to secure the buiilding for our sales and meetings. I don't belong any longer but another mom of twins in my church is now the contact person.


QUOTE(moski @ Apr 7 2008, 09:01 AM) [snapback]708754[/snapback]
I think that the point was that the MOTC is NOT affiliated with any church. I know our meetings are held in a church, but our group is not affiliated with that church and we have the same motto. And I have not heard or read a discussion of God, Jesus, Allah, or any other deity.

Our meetings were the same. Not affiliated in any way with the church and not religion based. BTW, I looked at the website and our club doesn't appear to use the logo or slogan.

 

From what I learned at our last MOMs meeting, if a group is affiliated with the national organization they are NOT allowed to have a religious affiliation. Our group has just been told that they can no longer meet at the church. Apparently this church has decided that they will no longer rent space to non-religious groups. We are going to move to a local hospital meeting space.

So, the fact that the meetings are held at a church is not an indication of religious affiliation. It sounds like this slogan is a reflection of the culture in this particular community though. I know I've lived in places where it simply wouldn't occur to anyone that there might be non-christians who would feel excluded.

 

While it is true that the word "God" can indicate the deity in any religion, the practical fact of the matter is that this is a usage (inserting religious references into everything) that only certain sects of Christianity use. Most mainstream Christians rarely inject religion into non-religious activities and events , mainly because they have worked hard over the last 200 years to become more inclusive and ecumenical in their mission to work toward a better, more peaceful world, and part of that has been recognising that there are many different religions. To work together in harmony, Christians need to respect this fact and respect other peoples' beliefs, and mainstream Christians have worked hard to do this. Jews do not write the word "G-d" out of respect and would never have a logo like this, even though they may be a very devout group. Muslims, also, do not trumpet the name of God on logos and such. So, I think it is disingenuous to claim that this logo is not exclusive and could refer to any religion. It could not and it does not. It refers to a narrow type of Christian sect and is exclusive, either deliberately so, or just because the people involved do not know or care if their logo might exclude people.

As I said before, atheists would not be hurt or offended by this logo; it actually is helpful since it alerts us to the fact that this is not a group of people with whom we would want to waste a second of our time!

The only truly offensive part of this logo, IMO, would be to people who belong to the very Christian sects that would use such a logo but who have unresolved infertility or have lost children. These are the people who would recognize instantly the pride and presumption in the logo and would instantly recognize the judgment and the cruelty in that message. Most Christians will tell you that they believe that no one can know or understand the way or will of God and none can know what He chooses. Yet, these people plaster a logo like this, in pride and presumption, using the name of God to elevate themselves above others (in their own minds, at least) and to make themselves feel special and superior. It is truly offensive if one truly believes in the Biblical God, and doubly so if someone who has lost twins, lost a baby or dealt with heartbreaking infertility and believes in the will of a God; not that one can't accept God's will, but that a group of insensitive jerks used a logo like that to raise themselves above you, pridefully gloating.

 

QUOTE(sharongl @ Apr 7 2008, 08:59 AM) [snapback]708748[/snapback]
Cheryl, the problem with the word "believer" is that is it really only used among Born Again Christains. If you ask my DH about his religion, he will say he is a Christian, my neighbor will say she is a Catholic, I will say I am Jewish, but many Born Again Christains will say they are "bible believing Christians"--hence the term "believer". All the people believe in G-d, but only Born Again Christians chose the term "believer"--does that make sense. And that is why it is commonly used by you and Cristina.

As for the church, my guess is that the group has nothing to do with the church itself. I used to attend a local MOTC group, and it took place in a church simply because one of the founding members of the group belonged to that church and they let us use the space.


I know that if I read that logo and knew that the meetings were held at a certain church, I would assume that the logo referred to the deity that church worshiped. I seriously doubt that a group who would use that logo in reference to Allah would meet at a Christian church. That is how I understood the original post about "believers." Also, I think the use of the word "believer" is often a regional thing, as well. I am a Born-Again Christian and, if asked, I will say I am a Bible believing Christian, but never use the term "believer." Not because I am against it, but it just isn't something I tend to say. But, I certainly think that most people understood what she was talking about and were simply being argumentative for the sake of an argument or to ignore the rest of the post.

As for the group being exclusionary, I doubt that is what the group had in mind. I know that, if I joined a mom's group or started one, I would want to feel open to sharing the things that are most important to me. At the top of this list is my relationship with Christ. So, I would join or start a group based on Christian (Born-again Christian, just so I am specific enough) principles. However, I would never tell someone they couldn't be a part of the group because of their beliefs anymore than I would tell someone they couldn't attend my church because they don't have the same beliefs. We love inviting people with different beliefs so we can share Christ's love with them. Since this is a private group they have that right.

I do have to say that I wouldn't use that logo, though. Not because of the mention of God and, honestly, it didn't even occur to me that it might have anything to do with fertility (perhaps that is based on my limited scope because I never dealt with this issue), but, it does come across to me as if twin moms are better than singleton moms. It just doesn't sound good to me.

 

Yeah I have to agree with Renee. Speaking as an athiest, the wording doesn't bother me. I'd be glad to know that religion somehow plays a part in this group, and I don't want to be a member. That being said, if religion is NOT a part of their program, they should probably get rid of the statement, as they may be losing members that are put off by the religious aspect of their motto. I don't get bothered by "In God we Trust" or god being mentioned in the pledge of allegience. I just roll my eyes.


But yeah, I am offended on an infertile level. The whole thought that someone is up there handing out babies to those who are deemed deserved of them. Makes me stronger in my belief that such a power does not exist. Because it's just stupid. Horrible people have children, wonderful people have children, horrible people are infertile, wonderful people are infertile. It's totally random. You can be the most godly devout person in town, and not have babies. Same with being a drug addict whore, and have 12 babies. There is no rhyme or reason to it. BUT - some people do believe in God. And those infertile people that are desperately wanting to have children might look at that slogan, and spend a whole day crying their eyes out, because they weren't "chosen" by god. Blech. It all just sit wrong with me. I mean really, what kind of God gives me TWO kids, when I don't even believe in him? He definitely screwed up there ...

So, to recap, I'm not offended as an athiest. I'm offended as an infertile.

And just so you know, the Catholic Church is fully and wholly against any type of infertility treatment that has the man masturbating and that creates more than 1 egg. But they are ok with chlomid and timed intercouse, since it's still "natural" ... i think someone asked a question about this. I'm not sure about other sects of Christianity, but according to the Donum Vitae, IVF and IUI are a no-go.

Erica

eta- I can't spell.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Apr 7 2008, 11:57 AM) [snapback]709132[/snapback]
The whole thought that someone is up there handing out babies to those who are deemed deserved of them. Makes me stronger in my belief that such a power does not exist. Because it's just stupid.


It is interesting to hear your viewpoint on this. I just wanted to say that as a Christian, I don't believe at all that God hands babies out based on who is "deserving" or worthy. If that is what He based it on, I sure wouldn't be a parent right now. I am completely unworthy and undeserving of anything (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God)

 

QUOTE(Nifty @ Apr 7 2008, 10:24 AM) [snapback]709051[/snapback]
While it is true that the word "God" can indicate the deity in any religion, the practical fact of the matter is that this is a usage that only certain sects of Christianity use. Most mainstream Christians rarely inject religion into non-religious activities and events , mainly because they have worked hard over the last 200 years to become more inclusive and ecumenical in their mission to work toward a better, more peaceful world, and part of that has been recognising that there are many different religions. To work together in harmony, Christians need to respect this fact and respect other peoples' beliefs, and mainstream Christians have worked hard to do this. Jews do not write the word "G-d" out of respect and would never have a logo like this, even though they may be a very devout group. Muslims, also, do not trumpet the name of God on logos and such. So, I think it is disingenuous to claim that this logo is not exclusive and could refer to any religion. It could not and it does not. It refers to a narrow type of Christian sect and is exclusive, either deliberately so, or just because the people involved do not know or care if their logo might exclude people.

As I said before, atheists would not be hurt or offended by this logo; it actually is helpful since it alerts us to the fact that this is not a group of people with whom we would want to waste a second of our time!

The only truly offensive part of this logo, IMO, would be to people who belong to the very Christian sects that would use such a logo but who have unresolved infertility or have lost children. These are the people who would recognize instantly the pride and presumption in the logo and would instantly recognize the judgment and the cruelty in that message. Most Christians will tell you that they believe that no one can know or understand the way or will of God and none can know what He chooses. Yet, these people plaster a logo like this, in pride and presumption, using the name of God to elevate themselves above others (in their own minds, at least) and to make themselves feel special and superior. It is truly offensive if one truly believes in the Biblical God, and doubly so if someone who has lost twins, lost a baby or dealt with heartbreaking infertility and believes in the will of a God; not that one can't accept God's will, but that a group of insensitive jerks used a logo like that to raise themselves above you, pridefully gloating.


Excellent, thought-provoking post! Thanks.

QUOTE(Stacy A. @ Apr 7 2008, 10:49 AM) [snapback]709109[/snapback]
As for the group being exclusionary, I doubt that is what the group had in mind. I know that, if I joined a mom's group or started one, I would want to feel open to sharing the things that are most important to me. At the top of this list is my relationship with Christ. So, I would join or start a group based on Christian (Born-again Christian, just so I am specific enough) principles. However, I would never tell someone they couldn't be a part of the group because of their beliefs anymore than I would tell someone they couldn't attend my church because they don't have the same beliefs. We love inviting people with different beliefs so we can share Christ's love with them. Since this is a private group they have that right.


That is the issue, that they "didn't have this in mind". Whether you're being exclusionary purposefully or not, the end result is the same. The problem is when "some" people can't see beyond their own beliefs and world view. They then make decisions based on that, which is fine, but not when you're affiliated with a larger organization that has no such affiliation. If the members want to start a faith-based group, they should do that. Just because it is a "private group" does not mean they have that right, if they are supported by a larger group without such beliefs.

*I* would be particularly offended if I went to what I thought was a non-religious group and members felt the need to "share Christ's love" with me. I'm sorry, I respect those beliefs a lot and share some of them myself. I just really dislike it when religious beliefs are injected into groups that could touch a much larger group of people (it's not like there are an over abundance of groups for parents of multiples and you could just move on to the next one...) Just my 2cents....

 

QUOTE(Stacy A. @ Apr 7 2008, 03:49 PM) [snapback]709109[/snapback]
I do have to say that I wouldn't use that logo, though. Not because of the mention of God and, honestly, it didn't even occur to me that it might have anything to do with fertility (perhaps that is based on my limited scope because I never dealt with this issue), but, it does come across to me as if twin moms are better than singleton moms. It just doesn't sound good to me.



I have not read all of the comments on this post. But, I totally agree with this part of the post. The issue that I have with the logo has more to do with the idea that some how moms of twins are better than other moms. That has always irked me. All moms are special no matter how one becomes a mom - planned, unplanned, IVF, fertility assitance, adoption single or married - or how many (1,2, 12 twins or other multiples or not) she has. My first reaction had nothing to do with my religious beliefs or affiliations, but more to the fact that it sounds superior. I would not join for that reason since I felt just as special with my first two singletons as with my twins.

JMHO.

 

caba do you know how all religions feel or just the Catholic church when it comes to masturbation and infertility? And what does it have to do with this topic?

 

QUOTE
Don't speak (or type) for me as though you know what I would or would not do.


I didn't so don't worry. I speculated, nothing more, nothing less.

QUOTE
How would I feel? I would not feel offended, excluded or insulted. It would not bother me.
But would you join? We've all said it wouldn't offend us, just that we wouldn't join.

 

QUOTE(momof5 @ Apr 7 2008, 05:33 PM) [snapback]709977[/snapback]
caba do you know how all religions feel or just the Catholic church when it comes to masturbation and infertility? And what does it have to do with this topic?


I only know about the Catholic Church, as that used to be my affiliation. I'm not sure how each denomination of Christitanity handles it. My friend who is Jewish said her rabbit said IVF was fine to do for them to have a family. So it must be different per religion.

As for this topic, I may be wrong, and I apologize if I am, but I thought someone (too lazy to go read through 7 pages) asked if God was ok with other things (Chlomid, medications) things that weren't as invasive as IVF. So as far as the Catholic Church goes, Chlomid is cool. But anything that could have extra embies that are left to die, or where the man masturbates, is no good.

If that wasn't from this thread, I apologize in advance. I get confused.

Erica

 

QUOTE(Donita @ Apr 7 2008, 04:37 PM) [snapback]709990[/snapback]
I didn't so don't worry. I speculated, nothing more, nothing less.

But would you join? We've all said it wouldn't offend us, just that we wouldn't join.

thanks for pointing that out. Then please don't speculate to think you know what I would do. You do not know me that well.



So I am supposed to answer this question you are asking because you have already shared that you would be exclusive toward a group because of they way they believe?

No matter what I type do you really care what my answer is?
If I typed I would attend would you believe me? and if I typed I would not attend would you judge me? I am tending to believe what a pp wrote that some are being argumentative just for the sake of arguing.

 

QUOTE(twin_trip_mommy @ Apr 7 2008, 08:41 PM) [snapback]710482[/snapback]
thanks for pointing that out. Then please don't speculate to think you know what I would do. You do not know me that well.



So I am supposed to answer this question you are asking because you have already shared that you would be exclusive toward a group because of they way they believe?

No matter what I type do you really care what my answer is?
If I typed I would attend would you believe me? and if I typed I would not attend would you judge me? I am tending to believe what a pp wrote that some are being argumentative just for the sake of arguing.

I'm not judging anyone, and no answer is all the answer I need. Thank you.

 

QUOTE(caba @ Apr 7 2008, 07:21 PM) [snapback]710207[/snapback]
My friend who is Jewish said her rabbit said IVF was fine to do for them to have a family.


Sounds like quite the synagogue. I don't even know where to begin with this one. :winking0009:

 

QUOTE(BGTwins97 @ Apr 7 2008, 09:04 PM) [snapback]710544[/snapback]
Sounds like quite the synagogue. I don't even know where to begin with this one. :winking0009:
:laughing: Good catch!

 

QUOTE(caba @ Apr 7 2008, 04:21 PM) [snapback]710207[/snapback]
My friend who is Jewish said her rabbit said IVF was fine to do for them to have a family.


This is probably my favorite post in this whole thread!!!
Everyone needs a smile after 7 pages of this....

 

QUOTE(tamaras @ Apr 8 2008, 12:50 AM) [snapback]710774[/snapback]
This is probably my favorite post in this whole thread!!!
Everyone needs a smile after 7 pages of this....


LOL, I caught it too and must admit, I did chuckle. :lol:

 

QUOTE(MamaKim @ Apr 8 2008, 06:38 AM) [snapback]710867[/snapback]
LOL, I caught it too and must admit, I did chuckle. :lol:
Yeah a Jewish rabbit discussing fertility issues is pretty funny!

 

QUOTE(azmomto2 @ Apr 4 2008, 06:52 AM) [snapback]704132[/snapback]
It would bug the heck out of me because I don't believe in God. I also think it might be hurtful...what about those who have lost a twin or triplet? It just doesn't seem inclusive or welcoming to me so it might make me think twice about joining.


This kind of thing bugs me too as i dont believe in god either. Unless it is a church run group then there is no need for that to be on there. I dont think i would want to join either. x

 

QUOTE(caba @ Apr 7 2008, 07:21 PM) [snapback]710207[/snapback]
My friend who is Jewish said her rabbit said IVF was fine to do for them to have a family


OMG! Can I tell you how silly I feel???? I should re-read what I write after I post it ... hehe.

Erica