Nap-time/Night-time Carousel

Discussion in 'The First Year' started by joybee, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. joybee

    joybee Member

    hi all! newbie poster and twin mom here...
     
    my boys are 16w (13w adjusted) and i need some help before i lose my mind! with a 5 & 3 y/o, i'm no stranger to sleep training and have just about read it all (for singletons) and have had great success. this feels like a totally different ballgame and my sleep deprivation has led to anxiety (i'm hearing phantom babies at every sleep attempt) and total cognitive decline (i couldn't do the simple math to make change yesterday) and basically i'm a weepy mess. hows that for an introduction?! ;)
     
    the basics: swaddled (with arms down), same room, separate cribs, white noise, can each do at least 6h between feeds at night, breastfed.
     
    the issue: they go down easily (drowsy cues clear) but neither make it beyond the 45min sleep cycle for naps, or can STTN without intervention.
     
    the carousel: re-paci, re-swaddle, into the swing, next to brother, separate from brother, into vibrating chair, re-paci, release arms, etc. each time they fall back to sleep, but don't STAY sleeping. big difference over here between STTN and simply not EATING thru the night. but what does it matter when no one is getting any decent chunks of sleep?!
     
    yes, we've tried modified CIO, complete CIO (after an hour i give up!), comfort/console, yadda yadda. they go down, just don't stay down.
     
    questions: what comes first...my nervous breakdown or resolution to the above? are they too young to CIO or expect longer stretches without intervention?
     
    i'm desperate...and if i had time and more functioning brain synapses, i would be able to read more of the posts here, or actually finish weissbluth's book for twins. in the meantime, i look to you for wisdom and hope!
     
    TIA!
     
  2. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    At 13 weeks adjusted, they are probably too young for full blown CIO, although I would let them cry for a few minutes, particularly if they are crying but then stopping and starting.

    Number one rule of CIO: do not start if you aren't committed to finishing. If you give in after an hour, you are teaching them to cry longer. So when they are ready for CIO in a month or two, keep that in mind.

    It seems like you've tried a lot of things, and I wonder how much time you are giving them with a routine before giving up? It really does seem like a carousel, and that's not going to get you there. Pick something and stick with it for at least a week.

    Some ideas: white noise? Letting them fuss a little to see if they go back to sleep (don't rush right in)? Ceiling fan? One of those acquarium toys that hooks on the crib (put them right next to it so they hit the button and turn on the music if they stir)? Letting them sleep in the swing for an extended period of time?

    Welcome! My twins are 5, but I have a 10 week old baby and feel a small portion of your pain.
     
  3. joybee

    joybee Member

    thanks rachael! we are definitely letting them fuss (read: the dragging ourselves out of bed takes longer and longer as the night wears on) and as crazy as this sounds, the carousel IS our routine, eek! noah will sleep on once he's re-paci'd and in the swing - which isn't great because i suspect he has torticollis, but that's for another post! he's made progress in that he can now at least start off in the crib before moving to the swing. weissbluth is not a fan of swing-sleep, so i'm gradually trying to get rid of that given the torticollis and "junk sleep." and yes, we use white noise and ceiling fan. as for the crying, it's not stop/start (although that would give me hope!) - it's constant and escalates. i've tried to feed those cries several times, but callan especially, isn't hungry and refuses. i know CIO isn't for everyone, but it was a lifesaver for my bigs, so i will definitely commit when the time comes ;) i guess i just feel like something has to give...and lately, it's been my sanity so i'm desperate for a plan. but your point about giving it time is duly noted!
     
  4. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    I love Weissbluth, but my twins slept half the night in swings until 7 months. My mantra is that it matters THAT they sleep, not WHERE. For us, it worked well. We did CIO (extinction) at 7 months when we couldn't get them to go down in their cribs at the beginning of the night. It took one night. Months of good sleep for one night of breaking them of their swings. I'm a huge fan of CIO, but I think it works best around 4-7 months. It's okay to go with what gets everyone sleep for a little while. I'm trying to avoid the swing with my singleton now, but singleton vs twins is a whole different ball game.
     
  5. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    In the meantime, can you and your SO take shifts? I find just 5 solid hours of sleep to be revitalizing.
     
  6. joybee

    joybee Member

    great point...they're both snoozing in swings as i type (after the 45min nap intruder, of course). the more tired i get, the more rigid i get about having a plan. so, half crib-half swing, THAT's my plan LOL. awesome that CIO was short n sweet for yours! night 1 is always the worst IMO, but both of my bigs figured it out by night 2, phew! i will have good sleepers, i will have good sleepers...
     
    DH has been amazing. he's seen my supply tank when i don't get a night stretch of sleep, so he's been gutting it out. i'm very lucky and hesitate to even complain kwim? but lately my anxiety has been so ramped up, that i'm having a hard time falling asleep despite being exhausted.
     
    btw, wow on carrying to 37.5 weeks, that's amazing!!
     
  7. paperclippy

    paperclippy Well-Known Member

    I don't have any advice but to say that I'm right there with you.  My girls go down at nighttime really easily, they just don't STAY asleep.  They used to sleep really well, almost STTN with a couple paci re-inserts, but about a month ago started a downhill slide and we haven't managed to make it back.  I think we were up with one or the other every 1-2 hours last night.  Naptime is also a mess -- they don't go down nearly as easily during the day, and invariably one of them will wake up early without sleeping enough and need to be attended to for like 30 mins before she falls asleep again.
     
    I know it's bad, but lately I've taken to taking the one that's fussing out of her crib during the night, into bed with me, and laying her on her tummy on top of me until she falls asleep, or nursing if she's willing (since that tends to knock them back out).  As much as I'm afraid of swaddle weaning, I'm looking forward to when they can roll enough on their own to be safe to start sleeping on their tummies.
     
  8. paperclippy

    paperclippy Well-Known Member

    Also cute photo, my girls were also peas for Halloween this year. :)
     
  9. joybee

    joybee Member

    hi paperclippy! i read your thread and can definitely relate to allll of that! seems all of the advice i've gotten (friends, books, etc) are for getting the twinks TO sleep, but i need them to STAY asleep! so, right there with ya! are both your girls paci-princesses? i've got one paci-junky, but the other will be a finger/thumb sucker (once i free his arms up) but i too am dreading that transition. one thing at a time i guess! your night sounds brutal, but all too familiar. callan stays awake so long after his 45min nap intruder that he falls back to sleep just as noah is waking (at an appropriate time) for the next feed. then we get completely off schedule and i end up nursing all the live long day, which just further exhausts me. sooo, i wake callan up and then he's too mad/tired to nurse. it's not pretty :(
     
    aww, your sweet peas are about the same age as mine, right? little older?
     
  10. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Mine just napped in swings. I didn't even try laying them down in cribs. We transitioned that cold turkey at 7 months too with no issues.
     
  11. joybee

    joybee Member

    oh that's great to hear, thanks!
     
    i'm heading into tonight with some hope ;)
     
  12. paperclippy

    paperclippy Well-Known Member

    Yeah, they were both paci-junkies up until like two days ago, when I switched them up to the 3+ month pacifiers instead of the 0-3 pacifiers and now all of a sudden they're refusing both the new ones and the old ones half the time.  ??  No clue what's going on there.  They're similar age, mine were born 4/29 but their due date was 6/28 so that's where we measure age from.
     
  13. daisies

    daisies Well-Known Member

    :welcome: Welcome to twinstuff!
     
    You have gotten some good advice.  I am all for do what works.  
    My LOs never liked the swings BUT DS slept better on his stomach... i think his acid reflux was better when he was on his belly.  I know that is a No-No but.. you do what works. From the point i knew he could lift and rotate his head while swaddled, he was on his belly and his sleep improved dramatically.  Not all 'rules' work for all babies.  Do what works.
     
    It sounds like they are escaping their swaddles??  
    If so check out this swaddle.  It is called a woombie.  It is stretchy with a zipper so very cozy and most important no escaping!
    It also has opening for the arms so when you are ready to wean them from swaddles you can release one arm at a time. It makes the transition much easier.. without this wrap it would have been a nightmare getting my DD swaddle weaned!  I had tried multiple times to wean her before a friend gave me her old woombie. I released on arm, then the other, then both with body still wrapped then into a sleep sack. .. it took two weeks but was relatively painless.
     
     
    As you know,
    The 45 minute wake time is an indication that they are either over tired (listening to your post.. of course they (and you) are!) and/or they are having trouble staying/going back to sleep after their sleep cycle.  
     
    Things you can do to help catch them up on sleep and teach them to self sooth-
    You probably are already doing/thinking about these.  Here are my thoughts/questions..
    -Are you putting them down to sleep, 'sleepy but awake'?
    -Awake time no more than 2 hours.  There was a period when my LOs regressed and needed no more than 1.5 hours awake time.
    -What time do they go down for the night?  It was about this time that my LOs needed to go to an early bed time.
     
    Hang in there!
     
  14. eagleswings216

    eagleswings216 Well-Known Member

    What does a day look like for your kids? Typical wake time, bed time, how often are you putting them down for naps, etc.?

    My kids were total cat nappers, and never did get good at naps until we hit the 1 nap phase. I was against CIO at the beginning, but when I finally gave in and did it when they were 9.5 months, they finally learned to sleep through the night. Before that, we had the nap and night carousel, too, and it was exhausting. Thankfully my mom lives nearby and would come 2 nights a week and let us catch up on sleep. Is there anyone who can give you a night break occasionally?

    I read all the popular sleep books, but severe reflux made things really tough for us. For example, having to keep the babies upright for 30-45 min. after each feeding threw the whole 'putting them down drowsy and letting them fall asleep on their own' idea totally out.. You don't mention if your kids have reflux? Even when my kids stopped eating at night around 3.5 months, the poor sleep kept on for a long time, since the reflux didn't resolve until they were about 11 months.

    At this point, I would do whatever you need to to get them to sleep and stay sleep - swing, rocking, paci, super dark room (we had black out curtains and cardboard taped over the window). You can break those habits later on, and yes that might be a hard process, but your sleep now is totally worth it! We followed the 90 minute window, so 90 minutes after they woke up, we tried to have them down again for more sleep. That definitely seemed to help, and if we missed it, their nap would be even shorter. Sometimes we all ended up in bed or on the sofa together, and since I was so tired, that was okay (but we didn't have older kids to keep up with, so that might not work for you).

    You could also try going in before they wake up and rubbing their back, resettling them, etc., without picking them up to see if you can get them into the next sleep cycle without fully waking. That never worked for us, but I have heard other people say it worked for them.

    Hang in there! The sleep deprivation is so, so tough. I still remember how exhausted I was during those months.
     
  15. joybee

    joybee Member

    i'm back to report i've regained (mostly) my sanity and the boys are napping and sleeping sooo much better through the night. (sleep begets sleep!) hurray! i feel encouraged that we're on the right track now and are laying the foundation to have good lil sleepers on our hands :) naps still bite the dust at the 45min mark, but with putting them both in swings, we're able to recover and i had some serious rip van winkle nappers this weekend WOOT! which led to better night time sleep, which led to better naps the following day. i think i was just too rigid about getting them to fall back to sleep in the crib and just not going with what works best for now. simple but effective. last night, we had a late night (1030p) feed, a wee hour re-paci/swing and then the next feed at 545a!! i even went for a run today, showered, and made an alligator princess cake (!!?!) for my 3 y/o bday party. feeling like superwoman (for the moment LOL)
     
    amy, my oldest wanted to sleep on his tummy from the get-go. we went with it once he was strong enough. in hindsight i realized this was why he was AWFUL in the car/car seat, because he just wanted to flip over to sleep. the 9 hour trip to visit my parents was aw.ful. for years!! yes, we're putting them down sleepy but awake and i'm confident we're hitting that window at the right time. they usually are up about 90min or so before showing signs they're ready to nap. bedtime is around 7pm depending on the days naps/feeds. and wow, the woombie looks amazing! i've never seen those!! does target or BRU carry i wonder?
     
    eagleswings, oh man, the reflux sitch would be so tough! poor things! we too have room darkening shades and enjoy our "cave sleep" your nursery must be pitch black with that plus cardboard taped ;) as i said to amy, i do think we're hitting the drowsy window just right. they go down with just a fuss or two and the naps today (after the 45min intruder) were lovely.
     
    ladies, thanks so much for the encouragement, suggestions, and commiseration. i needed that! :)
     
  16. daisies

    daisies Well-Known Member

    Hooray!
    and you go girl !!
     
  17. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Great news!
     
  18. joybee

    joybee Member

    Morning (zzzz). I jinxed myself. Wakings every hour last night, ugh. 11pm feed. Wakings at 1, 2, 3, and then I lost track. Up at 545 to eat.

    Are there swings out there that plug in? Spending a small fortune in batteries...
     
  19. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Ours plugs in. One of the Fisher Price cradle swing models. They have a few that plug in. Our swings last time didn't, and we did spend a fortune in batteries.
     
  20. joybee

    joybee Member

    oh awesome, off to find one! we're putting batteries on the twinkies xmas list LOL
     
  21. daisies

    daisies Well-Known Member

    Sorry to hear they have regressed again.. sounds like you are doing everything right.
     
    Something that really helped us was to chart everything.  (We caught my sons constipation issue much earlier.. i mean, we were changing dirty diapers!  without the chart it would have taken a while to realize none of them were his!)
    As they got older the chart was most helpful when they went through sleep transitions.. many times it help me see a pattern and a way to get them back on the same schedule.  ( i charted sleep until they went to two naps).
     
  22. cheezewhiz24

    cheezewhiz24 Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    My husband googled how to convert battery operated things into something that plugs into the wall when our babies were small. Essentially it's making a fake battery out of a dowel. We did it for our swings specifically as they ate D batteries every 2 or 3 days.

    Ours slept in swings until about 3 or 4 months, then bouncie seats. We transitioned to cribs around 5 months.
     
  23. joybee

    joybee Member

    amy, ah yes the charting ;) we have had a feeding/diaper chart going since birth and just started a sleep one last week. i also have a family calendar going, all of which live on clipboards (except for the sleep chart which is taped outside the nursery door). last week at preschool my 3 y/o apparently went around with a clipboard and crayon, asking everyone what their "plan for the day is" :lol:
     
    michelle, whaa?? you can convert things over like that? must put on DH's honey-do list ;)
     
    i've found a few on craigslist that i'm hoping to check out soon. the boys are taking rockstar naps today and i just grabbed one myself :clap: so we'll see what the night brings...my DH was a saint and handled all the night wakings for me!
     

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