Rabies Vaccine

Discussion in 'General' started by rrodman, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Those of you who are friends with me on FB have already seen this, but I'm anxious for any thoughts or experience I can get.

    One of the parents of children in my kids' daycare found a dead bat. They put it in a plastic bag, froze it, and brought it to the school. The teachers in at least two classrooms went along with this. Apparently the administration didn't know. At some point, the bat was left accessible and the children were left unsupervised. They took the bat out of the bag and played with it with bare hands. Jack says he touched "the soft part," which he has clarified to be its back. He swears he didn't touch its mouth. He also says he didn't wash his hands after. This all happened on Tuesday. The administration and owner spent the next two days discussing it amongst themselves and doing Internet research, and no one told the parents until pickup Thursday. In talking to the assistant director today, I learned that they did call the health department. But first, one of the teachers called the parent who brought the bat in and let them come pick it up and dispose of it. So no one can test the bat for rabies. And of course, they didn't tell the parents for days so I couldn't insist that the health department dig it out of the trash. Our pediatrician told us today that they got calls as early as Tuesday, so at least a parent knew. A parent told my pedi that they had told the teacher to give the bat to the health department rather than back to the parent, but they gave it back to the parent anyway.

    Today, per the daycare, the health department said there was essentially no risk because the bat was already totally dried out when it was found. But that info comes from the family that found it--and brought a dead back to school, destroyed evidence, knows people are ticked, and has a huge incentive to downplay.

    So, we have to decide whether to vaccinate Jack. Because of the delay in telling us, I lost several business days to gather info (and several days period because vaccines have to be given quickly). So we weren't able to talk to our pedi (just a nurse) or the health department (left a message). I know it's an infinitesimal chance of there being a problem, but how big of a chance do you need when the risk is certain death? I figure I have to assume the bat had rabies because I can't prove otherwise due to its destruction. I have to assume Jack touched its mouth because no one was paying attention to tell me otherwise and he's five and days have passed and he's not the most reliable witness. Which leaves me with the health department's conclusion based on suspect evidence and told to me by the daycare that has made the absolute worst decision at every step of the way. So I'm leaning toward vaccinating. I think the first shot of immuno globin is painful but the subsequent four shots over two weeks are just like normal vaccines.

    What would you do? Anyone have any factual info to impart? Thoughts? Personal experience? Had the shots? Know someone who has? I'll take any thoughts you have. I feel like I've been deprived of the ability to do my own research and figure this out by not finding out until last night and I have to make a decision quickly. So really, any opinions or thoughts are welcome.

    And in case it isn't obvious, I am so mad at our daycare. Everyone--every teacher who knew, every admin person, the owner who has a daughter J&A's age and who knows Jack and knows me--they all made the worst decision possible at every fork in the road. They endangered my child and helped the loss of evidence and didn't give me timely information.
     
  2. Rollergiraffe

    Rollergiraffe Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    When we have biologists going out handling bats they have to have their vaccine and/or titres done, but that's because they're handling live bats, and there's a much, much bigger risk of getting bitten and they're handling hundreds of bats. I am going to do research for you on how long rabies can survive and if through freezing (I seem to recall no, but I'll get back to you).
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. cheezewhiz24

    cheezewhiz24 Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    A few thoughts:

    Transmission of the disease is important to consider. Evidently mucous membranes, although rare, can cause infection. http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/transmission/ As you stated, you cannot trust the sources of information you have available that Jack didn't touch the bat's mucous or saliva. Nor can you trust that the bat was dried out.

    Is it possible for Jack to be tested for rabies or rabies antibodies?

    Given your situation, I would probably pursue vaccination. I should add, I do not vaccinate habitually.

    I want to add: I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I cannot believe the coverup your daycare did and am livid for you.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Katheros

    Katheros Well-Known Member

    Holy. Crap. I can't even imagine how livid you must be at the day care.

    I'm certainly no expert on the vaccine or rabies itself, but I would probably ask my pediatrician if there was a test to see if the virus was contracted. Although with time being of the essence, I would probably strongly consider just getting the vaccine done as well as any testing, just to be safe. Good luck, I hope it all turns out alright! I'm always telling my kids not to touch dead animals.
     
  5. Rollergiraffe

    Rollergiraffe Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    The virus is fragile and doesn't do very well outside the host; it will die when exposed to air or sunlight. http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/diseases/rabies.html

    However, if the bat was frozen fresh, there is a possibility that the virus was simply dormant: http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/32131.html (there were a number of health websites that had similar wording).

    Here's what I think should go into your risk calculation:

    1) The prevalence of rabies in bats; the prevalence is not high, but I think you're right to assume the bat had rabies in the absence of being able to test for it.
    2) The fact that the animal has been dead for some time. While it was frozen, it was also out of the freezer for some time before and after which makes the likelihood of any rabies survival low, on top of a lower risk that it had rabies in the first place.
    3) The transmission is only from saliva and/or brain tissue. In all cases of deaths from "unknown" transmissions related to bats, the case history notes a high likelihood that the victim came in contact with a live bat, and it seems probable that they had an undetected bite: http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/location/usa/surveillance/human_rabies.html
    4) Whether Jack had any wounds on his hands. Rabies can not be transmitted through the skin and has a low survival outside the host, so even if he did touch infected saliva, chances are low it would survive on his skin long enough to even make it to his mucous membranes.

    Now, that's the case for easing your fears, but frankly if I was in your position I would want to talk to a doctor ASAP. Would you consider taking him in to urgent care to discuss your concerns with a doctor? If the risks associated with the vaccine are low (which they seem to be), I'd probably go with that just to ease your concerns.
     
    3 people like this.
  6. jjzollman

    jjzollman Well-Known Member

    Unbelievable, Rachael! What were they thinking? I'd probably go with the vaccines, but I'm a worrier and it would eat at me. I'm so sorry you guys are dealing with this!
     
  7. tinalb

    tinalb Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Wow. Who takes a bat in to a daycare or a school?! I don't want my kids touching a bat... dead, alive, frozen, or thawed. I have no advice other than I am sure I would be feeling the same as you. The outcome of contracting rabies is death, so I would probably lean toward vaccinating, even though with all of Jen's info it seems the risk is fairly low. Huge :hug: 's to you & Jack both for having to deal with this!

    ETA Am I right that the incubation period for rabies can be up to a year? I can be a worrier & I would not want to be worrying about that for a whole year, making me lean more toward vaccinating. We have a friend whose daughter was bit by a stray cat that could not be located & they ended up vaccinating her. I don't remember the vaccine being too painful or horrible.
     
  8. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Thanks all. I really do appreciate all the thoughts and info. This is a tough decision. I don't know why, as I'm a huge believer in vaccines. We vaccinate for chicken pox. Why wouldnt I vaccinate for rabies under these circumstances? I'm just worried about Jack. Five visits to a hospital for shots over two weeks could be traumatizing.

    As I understand it, there's no real way to test Jack to see if he has it. It seems that the tests are worse than the vaccine and not fully accurate, whereas the vaccine is fully effective.

    Clearly, the health department is basing its conclusion on the bat being dead and dried out so that the disease would not have survived. That's probably what happened, but I don't know. It's the word of people who have already made poor choices.

    Jack is a nail biter, so he often has at least little hangnails, etc. We are going to call our pedi this morning. Yesterday Rick was trying to get our specific doctor and kept getting nurses. But our pedi has Saturday hours so we are going to try to get a doctor. Then we will probably take him to Chikdrens for the vaccine (the hospital does it anyway).
     
  9. MrsWright

    MrsWright Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    *hugs*. I'm sorry your dealing with any of this!!! I would be livid!!
     
  10. gina_leigh

    gina_leigh Well-Known Member

    I'd lean towards getting vax done.

    I just can't believe you have to deal with something so crazy! And I seriously can't believe that days went by before you were notified.

    Keep us posted!
     
  11. hudsonfour

    hudsonfour Well-Known Member

    What a crazy mess! Sorry you have to deal with the worry!
     
  12. AmynTony

    AmynTony Well-Known Member

    that sucks! I'd be livid too! I think the chance of rabies is so infinitesimal that I wouldn't subject the kids to the shot regimen (unless the doc recommended it)...

    honestly I think I'd be looking for another daycare as well as reporting them to the state body that governs daycares - that is a serious lapse in judgement...
     
  13. jjzollman

    jjzollman Well-Known Member

    Good luck today, Rachael! :hug:
     
  14. mama_dragon

    mama_dragon Well-Known Member

    This is such a horrid situation. I do hope when things have settled you contact the appropriate office and make a formal complaint to your state daycare liciencing office. What a serious laspe of judgement. It would be one thing if the teachers did not tell the admin but it is another that they daycare knew and did not say a thing.

    As for the vaccine. I know that the risk would be extremely small but as a parent I wouldn't want even the slightest risk. It does not sound like the parents who brought in the bat are exactly the best in judgement so I would have a tough time trusting their word.

    I am so sorry you have to deal with this. Best of luck to all of you today. I hope you get some answers and are able to be comfortable with whatever choice you make. I honestly very much doubt he was exposed to rabies but it is really a matter of what you are comfortable living with over the next 1-3 months.
     
  15. Leighann

    Leighann Well-Known Member

    Yikes! When I read your fb post I thought it was no big deal (my girls have touched dead birds.. For baby bird funerals you know), we dh or I always supervise and make sure they wash their hands thoroughly. But the story you wrote here on ts makes me worried. While the bat probably doesn't have rabies, how in the world were those kids able to get to it and play with it unsupervised?!

    I would talk to the pediatrician today and the administration at the day care next week. Good luck and I'm sorry you have to deal with this.
     
  16. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    We were able to talk to a very helpful nurse at the pedi a couple times and she talked to both doctors who were in today for us. They said that since we don't know, we need to vaccinate and we need to start today. So we are off to the ED for our local children's branch. (Yet another ill to lay at daycare's feet--we have to go the ED route because it's the weekend, so it will cost us another $500). We've explained to Jack. He's not happy, and he was so sad because he kept saying he just touched the fur. We told him we believed him and that he didn't do anything wrong but bat germs were scary and we needed to do these shots. And we told him we'd go to Toys R Us after to spend their gift cards. I wouldn't normally bribe like that, but the poor guy deserves it. He's okay with it now. I may have told him that there was a small chance the shots could give him superpowers, and I think he's intrigued by the idea of pretending that. :)
     
  17. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    And again, thank you all!!!! Your thoughts really did help me with the decision. Ultimately, the Pedi's recommendation was where my head was at anyway.

    And yes, I will be having further conversation with the daycare, probably reporting them, and probably finding a new center.
     
  18. Danibell

    Danibell Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    :hug: what a horribly scary situation!! I'm glad you got ahold of a dr, and like you, I would have to err on the side of caution and go with the vaccine's, but I sure wouldn't be happy about it!! I hope the shots go okay! And I think a little bribery in this situation is totally justified!
     
  19. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Done with today's shots. The vaccine dose was in his butt and he did great. Just winced a little. They had to break the immuno globin into two shots, both of which seemed pretty painful--a thick liquid. He definitely cried, but he seems fine now. He's chilling with a Popsicle while we wait 15 minutes to check for reactions.
     
  20. Leighann

    Leighann Well-Known Member

    :hug: poor kiddo and parents.
     
  21. daisies

    daisies Well-Known Member

    sorry you and he are going through this. I think you made a good decision, even though it will be a tough few days.

    Love that!
     
  22. ECUBitzy

    ECUBitzy Well-Known Member

    This whole situation is insane, starting with the parent (WTH?!) and right through the center withholding the information. I'm so sorry. :( I'm glad you vaxed, I would have too.
     
  23. Sue1968

    Sue1968 Well-Known Member

    The daycare workers have the WORST JUDGEMENT EVER! Right down to "don't worry, there's no risk". I would have made exactly the same decision about the shots. It's not like you can change your mind later. I hope you can find more intelligent child care soon.
     
  24. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Yes, yes they do.
     
  25. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Wow I can't believe you are going through this. I'm glad Jack didn't seem to mind the shot too much.

    So why in the world would a parent bring a dead bat to daycare in the first place?

    :hug: I'm sure this has been super stressful for you too.
     
  26. jjzollman

    jjzollman Well-Known Member

    I am still baffled by this whole ordeal! Hopefully other parents are tiicked off, too. Glad round one went well, poor guy!
     
  27. Mom2VLS

    Mom2VLS Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry you are having to go through this but glad he's taking the shots well!
     
  28. Oneplus2more

    Oneplus2more Well-Known Member

    I would have had the vax done too. It's probably not necessary & I'm sure he's fine [​IMG] but the bottom line is there really is no way to know for sure so I wouldn't risk it.
     
  29. MNTwinSquared

    MNTwinSquared Well-Known Member

    :hug: I'm so sorry this happened. You're doing the right thing. What a brave boy!
     
  30. monica77

    monica77 Well-Known Member

    Oh man, this situation sounds ridiculous, sorry you had to go through that. I am amazed with the parent that thought it was a good idea to bring a frozen bat to preschool and the day care decision to hide the truth from the parents. I hope Jack will be just as brave with the other shots.
     
  31. Rollergiraffe

    Rollergiraffe Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Glad the shot went well! Keep us posted on the super powers. I think you did the right thing, and now everyone can sleep at night. Do you know what other daycare parents have chosen to do? I wonder if there's a rash of kids needing the rabies vaccine if they'll get investigated. Such a crazy situation!
     
  32. sulik110202

    sulik110202 Well-Known Member

    I hope the shots go well and Jack's superpowers continue to grow stronger.

    I cannot believe a parent let a kid bring a bat to daycare. If my kids found a dead bat, the last thing I would think would be "let's freeze it and take to daycare."

    Sorry you are going through this!
     
  33. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Just yelled at the director. I yelled at the assistant director last week, so I'm talking my yelling up the chain. The assistant director had told me that she was in communication with the director and owner last week between when it happened and when they finally decided to tell us. The director told me that she didn't find out until Thursday morning, and then they told us Thursday at pick up. So she may not be as culpable as I thought. She also seemed to indicate that heads would be rolling today now that she's back.

    Still doesn't negate that the owner--who I know--did know and didn't tell us. Anna and her daughter were in dance together. We've sat in the same waiting room every week for two years. Her daughter is in Anna's class (usually both Jack and Anna's but he's in the next class up for the summer). We've been to her daughter's birthday parties and vice versa for the last four years.

    This is unforgivable.
     
  34. akameme

    akameme Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    This is horrific - I'm so sorry!

    I would make the daycare pay for the shots - what is the feeling of the other parents? Surely Jack wasn't the only curious kid

    And WTF with the parents - bringing a dead animal, any dead animal, to daycare???!!!

    You don't need this when you are like a month away from a new baby.
     
  35. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, since Jack moved up to this class for the summer and it's not his normal class, I don't know the parents at all. He's definitely not the only one who touched it. We know there were several others just for our pediatrician. Leaving aside everyone who sees another pediatrician. I cannot imagine we are the only ones ticked off. I'm not even close to the most intense parent out there.
     
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