What are your thoughts on "GIfted and talented" programs

Discussion in 'Childhood and Beyond (4+)' started by Lougood, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    To the original poster - what did you wind up doing? Did you have both of your girls tested even though one was recommended?
     
    My girls already go to a magnet school. They were tested before they were accepted in to the school. Now today I get a letter in the mail that Lily has been invited to test into the gifted and talented program. No letter for Amelia.
     
    I know they are equally smart. They are identical! Amelia is just a lot more shy and lacks self confidence while Lily is a people-pleaser and she is not so shy. They're only in the kindergarten.
     
    I have no idea what it would mean for Lily if she is labeled as gifted, or why Amelia is not being asked to test. What did they use to determine that Lily should be tested and Amelia shouldn't? I am going to call on Monday morning. I haven't told the girls anything about it because I don't want Amelia to feel bad.
     
    I was just wondering if you wound up getting both of your girls tested, or are there others out there who have been in this situation before? If Lily was my only kindergartener I would have her tested because why not? And if Amelia was my only kindergartener I wouldn't know anything about a gifted letter going home so I wouldn't care.
     
  2. tinalb

    tinalb Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    You might give it a couple of days, Aimee. If the letter came in the mail today, Amelia might get a letter yet. The letters might have just gotten separated in the mail.
     
  3. sharongl

    sharongl Well-Known Member

    Why do they have to be exactly the same because they are identical?   Jon was in a G&T program in K, for both math and reading.  They put him there because he was 3 reading levels above the next highest kid, and in math he was doing things on his own that the other kids had no clue about.  There was on other child in the reading and 3 in the math.  As they are two different children, they can have varying abilities, and I would never hold one back simply because their twin wasn't ready yet.  Now in 6th grade, Marc is in Honors for language arts and math, while Jon is only in Honors for Math.  So, while when in K, Jon was way ahead and Marc was average, over time, Marc has surpassed Jon. My point is, while one may show that she is gifted now, things can always change and her sister can catch up.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    I did end up testing them both. Originally I wasn't going to test either of them b/c of the program lacking any benefit in my opinion. But after speaking with a friend I decided to go ahead with it. If they test gifted, I will at least have some grounds for asking for more challenging work. I'm somewhat disappointed with our school this year. The sad part is it's one of the better schools in one of the better districts in our city. We find out in February how they did. Good luck deciding, can you request Amelia be tested? Your girls sound a lot like mine, the more outgoing one was the one recommended for testing.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. KCMichigan

    KCMichigan Well-Known Member

     
     
    I fully agree.
     
    Our area doesnt have GT support but so far the classes have done differentiation in-class.
     
    One of my DDs had an IEP and was in preschool with Spec.Ed support. She struggled in 1st (due to a long-story we skipped K on school suggestion becuase of cut-off ages in two different states).
     
    1st grade  both DDs had enrichment in reading & spelling, DD2 had math & writing enrichment. DD1 had support in writing.
    2nd Both DDs reading, math & spelling enrichment. Only DD2 has writing enrichment.
    3rd Both DDs have reading, writing, & spelling enrichment. Only DD1 has math enrichment.
     
     
    So you can see each year, it fluctuated depending on the DD and the subject. DD1 went from support in writing to being in the top group. DD2 was getting math and now no longer does.
     
    DD1 has some social issues and was very overwhelmed by school for the first year. She is still quiet and shy, but really has blossomed and her abilities shine in a quiet way.
     
     
     
    FWIW: They also had the same teacher for 1st & 3rd so she really knew and saw the differences. They are in the same class and always have been.
     
     
     
    I think in K & 1st, many of the kids in areas that do GT are more outgoing kids-- they catch the teachers eyes and are 'in your face' about what they can do. Quieter kids may or may not feel comfortable shining and/or really standing out. It can change, though it may not. I also think teachers will often forget that GT kids can have social issues that may or may not influence behavior/academics.
     
     
     
    I would do for each child what you would do if they were a singleton. You dont know what the next year will bring.
     
     
     
    Edited to add: Growing up my older brother got in to GT before I did, though we tested at the same time ( I tested in later when I was older). Although I had no issues with the academic and/or cognitive portions--- I did not 'pass' the independent/social portion because , at 6, I was rather shy and hesitant. They wanted kid that could and would participate and be independent in their skills & work. I am sure since then, they have revamped the program (early 80s), but many programs still have a 'recommendation' and/or 'independent' portion to see if the kids will work well with the program they use. They often use a rubric and/or checklist to see if kids meet a certain percentage of social/work/independent skills. Not saying  that I agree with that way of qualification-- I am just saying that it may still exist.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    My first instinct when I saw the letter was to feel like I didn't like my one child being left out. I work with them at home and I know one isn't ahead of the other.
     
    I'm going to wait and see if a letter comes for Amelia. I'm thinking maybe they just test all kindergarteners in the parish and if so, I'm not going to get either tested. I don't think there are any gifted services at their school.
     
  7. KCMichigan

    KCMichigan Well-Known Member

     
     
    You are likely to face this in the future. Honestly, what if one gets into talent show, spelling bee, Science Fair, pull-out support or speech, or suggested to Student Council, and/or tryouts for a sport ? Or gets an academic or sportsmanship award at school? Or middle school academic class (Honors)?
     
    I also look like enrichment programs similar to support programs. If you qualify- there is real opportunity to see if it is beneficial. It is much easier to keep a spot and drop it if you dont like the program, than try to get one (or two) 'later' if you realize that it might be helpful.
     
    Keep in mind, it may or may not be all academic based. Also, many areas you can appeal testing and/or admission if you are concerned it is inaccurate. So if one gets in, you are more likely to win one appeal than two later.
     
    If they are aware that it will not always be 'fair' now, you are less likely to get upset emotions later. Just my opinion though.
     
    2 people like this.
  8. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    Maybe I wasn't clear.
     
    If it's only Lily that was asked b/c of some academic reason of course I'm going to let her try for it.
     
    But if it's a generic letter that was sent out to all kindergarteners in the city I am not going to have them go on Saturday and do the test when I don't think their school has gifted services.
     
  9. sharongl

    sharongl Well-Known Member

    But you said only one got the letter, so how could it be a generic letter to all K students?  That just doesn't make sense...  If you are unsure about services offered in the school, call up and ask.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    It came on Saturday. After I googled "universal gifted testing" - after I posted - I thought maybe they were just testing all K students in the parish and the letter to Amelia just got separated in the mail.

    But it did not come today so tomorrow I am going to call the testing person at their school and ask about it. I don't think it's going to hurt anything to have Lil tested.
     
  11. KCMichigan

    KCMichigan Well-Known Member

    Areas that dont 'universally test' often rely on parent and teacher referrals for GT slots. They likely send out referral forms to all teachers with kids feeding into the grade they are 'screening' for GT. They then likely send invites for testing to those families.  
     
    In most areas, parents may refer as well. If one daughter gets referred, you likely can refer the other. 
     
    Check- if they have a procedure for GT, it should be posted online and explain how they do referrals, placement, testing, and programming.
     
    I have no idea on services for private schooling---but if your state does GIEPs (ours does not), they may.
     
  12. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Mine are being tested tomorrow. I did test them both. Jack is the more clearly academically gifted, but Anna is advanced in logical reasoning, memory, and emotional intelligence. I honestly don't know how it's going to come out. We find out in early Feb.
     
  13. Minette

    Minette Well-Known Member

    I'm several months late to this discussion and didn't read most of the other responses... but for what it's worth, here's our recent experience. We got a letter sent home saying Amy was being referred for testing. We weren't too surprised about that, but really surprised that Sarah hadn't been referred also. Amy is a lot more talkative, and Sarah tends to hide her light a lot more. They also have different teachers. So, I wrote to Sarah's teacher and asked to have her tested too. I said I would be fine with whatever the results were, but I just wanted Sarah at least to have a shot. Also, I thought it would actually be pretty valuable for Sarah to get labeled gifted, because her teachers never seem to believe me when I tell them how smart she is.
     
    So they both had the testing... and only Amy got in. However, their scores were super close. I don't know exactly how the tests work, but there were 4 tests and a child had to scoreabout 95th percentile in at least one of them. Sarah actually scored higher than Amy on two of them (in one case a lot higher) but neither of them were over 95%. But there was one test that Sarah got like a 75% on and Amy got a 98% -- verbal skills. (Not at all surprising!) Sarah may get tested again next year.
     
    The program hasn't actually started yet, but we are getting the emails, and I'm worried about what we've gotten into. It sounds mostly like more homework. They do cool stuff in the TAG class, but parent participation is clearly expected, and I just don't know how much we can do. I guess we can always pull her if it turns out to be unmanageable.
     
    Meanwhile, Amy keeps trying to lord it over Sarah that she's in the TAG program and Sarah's not. But Sarah is pretty quick to remind Amy that she scored higher on half the tests.
     
  14. akameme

    akameme Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    In our school district they test all 2nd graders. But I don't know more than that.
     
  15. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    I did call and it turns out Lily scored extremely high on the developmental skills checklist that they gave all kids at the beginning of the school year. It is a verbal test.

    The lady at the gifted office recommended that I test both girls. However, after talking with their school counselor I've decided to only have Lily tested this year. If she tests gifted but stays at her current school she will need to be retested in 3 years before she goes to middle school. The immersion middle school is magnet AND gifted so she could choose which tract she wants to go on. So I'm thinking 3 more years to get comfortable at the school and mature socially is what Amelia needs before I consider having her tested.
     
  16. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    So we went ahead and tested both girls.  The one who was recommended for testing got into the GT program, the other did not.  The one who didn't make it had  scores that were actually quite high, she scored GT on 2 of the 3 tests.  She needed to score GT in 5 out of 8 sections and she got 4.  Her teacher recommendation made up 2 sections and was quite low.  This didn't surprise me as I had to make her teacher test her on a higher reading level at the beginning of the year because she didn't believe she was above level.  She's very quiet and reserved, whereas my other one is very vocal and outgoing...her teacher inventory was pretty high.  I do wish she would have made it to be in the GT classroom next year, not the pull out program.  The only reason I care is because as the year has gone on I have learned that neither one has received small group instruction due to being "in the high groups" in their classes.  Apparently small group instruction is reserved for below level and on level students.  :/  I fully believe there is benefit to mixed ability classrooms for everyone, but more often than not the high achieving students are the ones most often left to their own devices.  Sorry for the rant, I've just been left feeling a little jaded by this school year and wonder if it will only get worse as they introduce standardized testing next year. 
     
  17. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    We just got our results as well. Neither tested in, but both were close. What was really useful for us was seeing that Anna really did score very close to Jack. I've known that she is as smart as him, but she doesn't show it. She defers to him, and she can be a little unfocused on things. She's a lot like I was as a child, and I didn't test in until older. But it was nice to have confirmation that she is right there with Jack.
     
  18. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    Will you have them retested?  I do feel there is a lack of focus for the one who didn't test in, it just doesn't seem as important to her.  Don't get me wrong, her grades are amazing (nothing under 97 on report cards) but she is very light hearted when it comes to learning.  I actually love how different they are.  You are right, it was a good confirmation to see how on par they are for the most part for mine as well. 
     
  19. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Not this year. They are only in K. Probably once a year.
     
  20. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    Right, I meant next year, sorry. 
     
  21. rrodman

    rrodman Well-Known Member

    Our school actually offers multiple testing opportunities a year. So I could retest this year, but I think we will wait until next.
     
  22. Leighann

    Leighann Well-Known Member

    We have been dealing with this for one of our girls. The next option I'm exploring is having her pulled out for literacy into a higher grade classroom. So she can go and actually get the benefit of a 2nd grade teacher for reading and writing, instead of being made to work on her own with one other little girl in her 1st grade class. We will see. Our district doesn't do gt testing until 3rd grade and from what I've heard its not a stellar program.
     
  23. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry Leighann.  :(  I hope they will allow that for you guys.  I will be conferencing next week with the teachers and then the following week with the principal.  I'm very saddened and disappointed that this has been going on.  One of mine has actually been complaining about the lack of interaction she has with her teacher and how she's so bored.  :(  She loves to read, but she feels like all she does is worksheets and read independently lately.  Sigh. 
     
  24. sharongl

    sharongl Well-Known Member

    When my boys were in 2nd grade, one of them was also not getting Guided Reading very often, also because he was in a high group.  My other child, also in a high group didn't have that issue because he was in an inclusion class, so 2 teachers meant twice as many kids could be seen in guided reading groups each day.  What I did, and I know not all have this option (as I am a certified teacher, and a sub in the district), was to volunteer in the classroom 1-2 times a week, then we could see more kids for guided reading.  That helped a lot.  The following year, once again, one in an inclusion class, and the other not, the non-inclusion teacher teamed up with another teacher to group the kids for reading.  The groups were a bit bigger, 6 kids instead of 3-4, but it allowed for more time for each kid for guided reading.
     
  25. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    I would love to volunteer to do this, and plan to bring it up at my meetings next week. I too am a certified teacher (although it feels like a lifetime ago) so hopefully that will play in my favor. At this time though, they have a no parents in the classroom policy so I'm not sure what will happen. Any advice on how to go about suggesting this?
     
  26. sharongl

    sharongl Well-Known Member

    Are you certified to sub in the district?  That would be the first step--that way you are "vetted" by the district, so that you are legal to be in the classroom and with the kids.  My argument was that since I could do the guided reading as a sub, why couldn't I do it to help?  Since there was no downside to them, it was allowed.
     
  27. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    No, I'm not a sub nor do I plan to apply. I have a two year old at home and don't plan to return to work until she's in school. I've filled out the criminal background stuff and have been OKed to volunteer, but that's it for now. Funny thing though, I don't think the subs in our district do guided reading, more often than not they are a warm body in the classroom. Unfortunately one of the teachers just fell and broke a hip bone so will be out for at least 6 weeks. So now even less will be done. I guess this has turned into a totally different topic now...
     
  28. AimeeThomp

    AimeeThomp Well-Known Member TS Moderator

    I wondered if there was some sort of state incentive for more children in the GT program because the GT office again called me asking me to have Lily tested.

    I have requested it at her school and was told that they test the 5th graders first because it's their last year at the school and the middle school is a magnet immersion and GT school.

    They seem to be pretty adamant about wanting to test her and I was wondering why.
     
  29. sharongl

    sharongl Well-Known Member

    Actually, that might not be as bad as you think.  6 weeks is a long term sub, so they will probably hire someone for the job, and not just have a "warm body".  I do know subs that are warm bodies, and hate when they are in the classroom.  One reason I won't sub in High School is because, by necessity, math and science subs almost have to be a warm body as the teacher can't trust that the sub knows their material.  When I sub, I do actually teach :)
     
  30. Lougood

    Lougood Well-Known Member

    Oh yeah, I'm sure you do teach when you sub!  I actually taught too when I subbed for a while when the girls were first born.  lol!  :)  Last week one of the other second grade teachers was complaining because the sub barely spoke English.  :(  I'm hoping they do a long term sub, I'll find out today.  There is one that rotates around the school that I really like and one of the old kinder teachers who retired last year is long term subbing so I'm hoping it's one of those two. 
     
     
    As for the question of state, I'm not sure...sometimes if the numbers are low I have heard of stuff like that, but it's state and district specific I suppose like everything else.  I would ask! 
     
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