where do you stand on selective reduction?

quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:
quote:
It is taking a life, there is no way to get around it. If something has a heartbeat then its alive, you cant protect yourself by just saying "oh well its a fetus, not a baby"...it has a heartbeat that is why I feel it is taking a life.


You don't think this sounds judgemental?

I truly believe everyone is entitled to their opinions. What gets me is when you haven't walked my path and yet can tell me it is wrong. You may think you know what you would choose, but until you are there you really haven't a clue.
...

No I dont think its judgemental, its fact...anything with a heartbeat is alive, its not dead, its a proven fact.

As for the walking in people shoes, if you read my previous post you will see that I was told to consider aborting Madison, they said she wouldnt make it and since the girls were in one placenta it would risk Brookes life. We told the doctors no. I have a dead child already and was not responsible for it. I know the pain everyday that I face without Kaitlyn and would not put my self purposly through another loss.

I dont expect anyone to appologize for their comments as I stand behind my own. Nor will I hold any opinions against anyone

 

I guess I take it as when you say SR is wrong it sounds judgemental. If you said you couldn't do it would be different. I think vanilla shakes are boring, but I don't think it is wrong to want one. Does that make sense?

 

quote:
Originally posted by Donita:
quote:
I answered the question that was posted with my personal opinion and from my experience. I am not a "fertile mertle" (my own words) We went childless due to fertility issues for 6 years. I just wanted one baby when I went in for my fertiliy treatments in 1998. I was mature and went in knowing the chance I was taking. We got (triplets originally then at 8-12 weeks we found out it was) twins. Then we went back in 2000 and again knew our chances and
became pregnant with (twins and then at 12 weeks found out it was) triplets. We accepted this. We had the reduction option sugested to us and we refused. I have walked in those shoes so I do know exactly what I would do and actually did.


Not necessarily Cheryl. I don't mean to soundmean, but you did already have 2 children. If you were unable to carry a triplet pregnancy to viability you would not have been left childless without hope of future children. So you really haven't walked in those shoes. I was offered the option of reduction. I already had children and a proven uterus, so I have not walked in those shoes either.

When you already have children and proven that your uterus can handle pregnancy I don't think you can say what you would do given the right situation. IVF + incompetent cervix + last chance for children may have you thinking twice.



Every situation is personal and differant. I am asking that you please speak for yourself. You don't know me (yes you know things I have shared but you don't know me) so please don't atempt to quote my words, call me wrong or sugest I don't know what I would "do given the right situation".

To stay on point
quote:
where do you stand on selective reduction?

I am 100% against selective reduction. 1st 2nd or any pregnancy.


Selective reduction was offered to me during my triplet pregnancy (to "reduce away" Stephanie and Daniel), yes I did already have two children at home but I still chose NOT to go that route.

No matter the situation I have but one thought no need to think twice. I am against SR and abortion.

 

My point was.. you have repeated attempts at IVF, the ones that take have repeatedly ended in sponateous abortions. Your body has just about taken all it can and your mental status is pretty much shot. You know this will be your last chance. You only implant 2, but those 2 split. So now you have 4. Your body has already proven that it cannot hardly stand the strain of 1 or 2 babies.

No drs don't know how a body will react to pregnancy on the first one. In my posts I have never said anything about FIRST pregnancies. I have been talking about LAST CHANCES. My SIL (brothers wife) didn't have to do IVF, but she did have 5 or 6 spontaneous abortions do to an incompetent cervix. I seen the pain and suffering that she had to endure each time. Can you imagine carrying a pregnancy to 20 or so wks only to have it repeatedly end?

This is why I am willing and able to admit that I don't know what I would have done in those shoes.

 

quote:
Every situation is personal and differant. I am asking that you please speak for yourself. You don't know me (yes you know things I have shared but you don't know me) so please don't atempt to quote my words, call me wrong or sugest I don't know what I would "do given the right situation".

I actually said that you had not walked in those shoes. I do know enough about your situation to know that you have not been in those particular shoes.

 

quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:
I guess I take it as when you say SR is wrong it sounds judgemental. If you said you couldn't do it would be different. I think vanilla shakes are boring, but I don't think it is wrong to want one. Does that make sense?


We ALL have things that we think are 'wrong,' be that rape, murder, evading the IRS, theft, bestiality, concentration camps, war, kidnapping, spanking your children, or any number of things.

Do you really mean to tell me that there is absolutely NOTHING in this world that you think is just flat-out wrong?

 

Donita..I can not say I do know the pain of losing a child a 20 weeks or so over and over again. How painful that would be. I do know what I would do in a situation that requires SR being offered and only answered for what I do know I would and have done.

I guess we can only speak for ourselves in this matter. I am against SR and any abortion for any reason whatsoever..this is my right..and my choice, just like others have the choice to support a womans choice to have SR or abortion.

Brandy

 

quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:
I guess I take it as when you say SR is wrong it sounds judgemental. If you said you couldn't do it would be different. I think vanilla shakes are boring, but I don't think it is wrong to want one. Does that make sense?


I understand what you mean, its just personal opinion, its my faith, its what I have been through. I think its wrong thats why I said no to the doctors, doesnt mean that i will hate someone for doing it, those who made the decision to SR made it, it has nothing to do with me, it just means I wouldnt do it. With my history not one person thought Id carry both girls as far as I did. No one thought Id get to 20 weeks, I proved them wrong and have two little girls to show for it. THe pregnancy was difficult, modified bedrest from 10 weeks on, strict at 24, decels for Madison, growth issues, being told she probabaly had turners syndrome, hospital at 29, delivery at 32 weeks, the NICU again, but we made it. The concern was alot for my health, that is actually why we delivered because of me not the girls, they were still stable, I wasnt. I risked my life and we all made it through.

 

quote:
We ALL have things that we think are 'wrong,' be that rape, murder, evading the IRS, theft, bestiality, concentration camps, war, kidnapping, spanking your children, or any number of things.

Do you really mean to tell me that there is absolutely NOTHING in this world that you think is just flat-out wrong?


Yes, Kevin Federline rapping is just wrong!

 

quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:


Yes, Kevin Federline rapping is just wrong!

yep i agree there

 

quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:
quote:
We ALL have things that we think are 'wrong,' be that rape, murder, evading the IRS, theft, bestiality, concentration camps, war, kidnapping, spanking your children, or any number of things.

Do you really mean to tell me that there is absolutely NOTHING in this world that you think is just flat-out wrong?


Yes, Kevin Federline rapping is just wrong!

At first I thought I read this as Kevin Federline Raping is wrong ...then I laughed because I re-read what you wrote..and totally AGREE.


Brandy

 

quote:
Originally posted by a1cbrandy:
Donita..I can not say I do know the pain of losing a child a 20 weeks or so over and over again. How painful that would be. I do know what I would do in a situation that requires SR being offered and only answered for what I do know I would and have done.

I guess we can only speak for ourselves in this matter. I am against SR and any abortion for any reason whatsoever..this is my right..and my choice, just like others have the choice to support a womans choice to have SR or abortion.

Brandy
I know Brandy. This is why I did not say that anyone would think twice. I said may think twice. Grief, and the longing for a child can possibly drive you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do.

 

quote:
Originally posted by a1cbrandy:
quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:
quote:
We ALL have things that we think are 'wrong,' be that rape, murder, evading the IRS, theft, bestiality, concentration camps, war, kidnapping, spanking your children, or any number of things.

Do you really mean to tell me that there is absolutely NOTHING in this world that you think is just flat-out wrong?


Yes, Kevin Federline rapping is just wrong!

At first I thought I read this as Kevin Federline Raping is wrong ...then I laughed because I re-read what you wrote..and totally AGREE.


Brandy

And Kevin Federline rapping while raping would be even more wrong. Now that we're ALL judgmental together, let's go have a

 

quote:
Originally posted by Donita:
Grief, and the longing for a child can possibly drive you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do.


I think the longing for ~anything~ can possibly drive people to do all sorts of things they wouldn't otherwise do-- rape, murder, stalking, theft, adultery.

 

4JsinPA& Mellizomama~ Thank you for sharing your stories. I think it puts a different perspective on things. You are brave women who made the right choices for yourselves at the time. I do not judge you, I respect the decisions you made.

I don't know where I stand. I agree with arguments for both sides.

 

I think that my feeling is that, in a topic that is about opinion and is very very very sensitive when someone makes a value judgment about something that is a personal and heartbreaking decision, it is hurtful. When someone says YOU ARE WRONG IF YOU XXXXXX. that is judgmental, I certainly judge rapists as hideous humans. The fact that you are equating the wrongness of SR with the wrongness of rape is what sets my teeth on edge.

Oh and ANYTHING with a heartbeat is alive? SERIOUSLY? Heart cells beat outside any body by themselves in unison, with or without an organism in the room.

 

I was diagnosed with TTTS at 20w 6d and told my chances of carrying both babies to a viable state were slim to none and slim was out of town on a shopping spree. Without doing any research on my own first I immediately asked my doctor if there was any way to save one of them, and he knew I meant SR. I was told that SR would result in the demise of both babies, so thankfully I did not have to make the decision. Was I willing to do it then if it were an option...yes...would I choose to do it now...no.

 

quote:
Originally posted by kma13:


Oh and ANYTHING with a heartbeat is alive? SERIOUSLY? Heart cells beat outside any body by themselves in unison, with or without an organism in the room.


YOu can think a baby isnt a baby until its alive and thats fine but I will tell you as a mother whose baby was stillborn that my baby was very much alive, I know what I know and I know what the bible says. No where does it say that a baby isnt alive until it takes a breath, it even says "Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in countinuance were fashioned, when yet as there was none of them." psalm 139:16

Say all you want but there is no one on this planet that will ever convince me that my baby wasnt alive inside of me, I certainly felt her kicking and moving, i saw her practice breath.

If a baby isnt alive in the womb then why does anyone get attached to a "thing"?

You are either dead or you are alive

 

Just putting this question out there:

Let's say there's a situation where if all fetuses continue to grow, then the mother's life and/or all the babies' lives are in serious danger. For those that are against SR, why is it "the right thing" to risk the lives of all involved? I know the answer is "God has a plan", but what if God is putting SR out there as a way to save lives?

 

I did put my life and my babies lifes at risk, if we were meant to die we would have, like my daughter did. i didnt ask for it, I didnt want it to happen but it did. And no I dont believe that every medical procedure out there is ok by God. I believe he allows us as humans to make choices in our lives to which we will be held accountable for

 

Wow, interesting post.

As for people being judgemental--yes, I detected some "holier than thou" attiudes, but this is not the first post where I have seen that type of attitude.

"but sometimes seeing someone else's perspective opens your eyes a little to the harshness of your own words..."

Perfectly said. Nobody does SR without a whole lot of PAIN and SORROW on top of what they have already been through. It is not our job to quote the Bible and continue beating a dead horse about beating hearts what is a baby, what's not, what's right , what's wrong...etc. I was very surprised on how harsh people continued to be after personal heartfelt stories were shared.

I would say, like other topics, this is one to stay away from. It is too senstitive. I know the OP asked about where people stand on SR, but I am not so sure that it is the most productive and appropriate topic to discuss given the pain, sorrow and hurt that people go through when doing fertility treatments. IMO, this topic is no different than asking, "Where do you stand on fertility treatments" Nobody would dare ask that question because we all know there are plently of people on this board that have gone through that. I suggest we close this thread. It is way too harsh and sensitive.

 

quote:
rape, murder, stalking, theft, adultery.
I believe those things fall under psychotic and insanity, not grief and longing. I just cannot reconcile rape, theft, murder, etc with doing everything in your power to preserve a pregnancy. To say that a grief stricten woman who wants nothing more than to become a mom is on the same level with a rapist? I don't get it. And now, I'll bow out of this conversation as it will go nowhere.

 

When being told that a baby is not a baby it is hurtful to someone who has a dead child. I will quote as many bible verses as I want when I feel its appropriate. People make their own choices, all Im saying is why I feel the way I do just as those who went ahead with an SR wrote why they did what they did. And I never said I was "holier than thou" I simply quoted a reason why I wouldnt do it. Everyone wants to say "live a day in my shoes" well Ive been in that situation, and Ive been through the worst nightmare a parent ever has to live...like it or not I read my bible and do not think im better for it but i do feel better about my life since I started reading it

 

[QUOTE)

Yes, Kevin Federline rapping is just wrong! [/QUOTE]

At first I thought I read this as Kevin Federline Raping is wrong ...then I laughed because I re-read what you wrote..and totally AGREE.


Brandy[/QUOTE]

And Kevin Federline rapping while raping would be even more wrong. Now that we're ALL judgmental together, let's go have a [/QUOTE]



LMAO!!!

 

Another thing to consider...close to 99% of all selective reductions are done by women who used fertility treatments. Meaning these are already woman who want a baby so badly that they will go to great lengths to get a baby.
Also, s/r is more common in the higher order multiples, not as often on triplets or twins, although I have seen many trips to twins or even twins to singletons people. So many have said they wouldn't have done it with trips, but what about if they were quads, quints or sextuplets. How would that change if at all? Also, s/r is done at 13-14 weeks not any further into the pg than that. So its not an "early abortion" as some call it and its not late one.

I have seen this debate on many boards and as with most things, not everyone will agree and thats okay. Its what makes the world go round. And honestly with things like this, I like it when people give a reason as to why they feel the way they do instead of just saying "its wrong!". As hurtful as it may be to hear what people have to say...I knew when opening this thread that stuff would be there. People are very passionate about it on both sides. A lot changes when you or someone you love or are close to is in the situation which may or may not change your judgement. The thing is you just don't know until it does...even if you think you do.

 

quote:
Everyone wants to say "live a day in my shoes" well Ive been in that situation, and Ive been through the worst nightmare a parent ever has to live...


This is the exact reason why I think we should close this topic. This topic is too emotional, too painful...

I am so sorry to all of you have lost a child...am am bowing out of this conversation now.

 

quote:
This is the exact reason why I think we should close this topic. This topic is too emotional, too painful...


I agree that this topic is emotional, however, I'm not sure that closing it will solve anything. Everyone is going to have a different point of view and that is what makes us unique. When you enter a thread like this you have to keep an open mind that people are expressing their opinions...and while you may or may not agree...it is still their opinion.

Anyways, here is the main reason why I am against selective reduction. I believe that most selective reductions are done for medical reasons, but what about the ones that aren't? There are people that get pregnant with twins, triplets or more and then just decide they only want 1 or 2...not because it is a health risk or harmful, it is because they only want however many children. I think that is wrong. Just like I think that an abortion clinic that would advertise to teenage mothers that they can just get an abortion and the whole thing would be like it never happened is wrong.

Now, will I go around telling people that they are wrong in their views? No. Just like I don't go to abortion clinics and tell them they are wrong. (partially because I think there are certain instances where abortion should be acceptable...as in case of rape...) You have your views, and I have mine...that is fine with me. And if my best friend had to get fertility treatments and chose to get a selective reduction, that would be her choice, would it bother me...no. That is her right and we would still be best friends.
Here is an article about a woman who decided to go from triplets to a singleton because "she just couldn't have 3"... http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/coffin200407210831.asp

 

I KNOW THIS IS SO DEEP THAT NOBODY WILL READ THIS BUT, here goes!!!

I would have to agree with the original poster on this topic, But that is based on not only my beliefs, but also on my experience, As some of you know we conceived 3, and lost one almost at the very moment that I gave up!! I was so very sick, that I looked and dh (mind you, we did not know there was more than one until 3 more weeks after that point) And I said, if we lose this baby, we are not doing this again!!!!!! He agreed! It was almost at that very moment that baby #3 stopped growing!! So, I know that God was in control and knew that we/I/me/my body, could not handle that third baby, He also knew that I needed an angel and my daddy that was in Heaven already, needed a grandbaby to hold. And now I am crying!!! LOL! Thanks for the shake up!!!!! LOL! This is a topic that I never really thought much about, and I am glad that I got to think about it.

 

quote:
Originally posted by kma13:
I think that my feeling is that, in a topic that is about opinion and is very very very sensitive when someone makes a value judgment about something that is a personal and heartbreaking decision, it is hurtful. When someone says YOU ARE WRONG IF YOU XXXXXX. that is judgmental, I certainly judge rapists as hideous humans. The fact that you are equating the wrongness of SR with the wrongness of rape is what sets my teeth on edge.

Oh and ANYTHING with a heartbeat is alive? SERIOUSLY? Heart cells beat outside any body by themselves in unison, with or without an organism in the room.


Go re-read my post. I did not say they are equal. I said we ALL have things that we believe are WRONG. Some people here very clearly think that it is WRONG to have any view other than the politically correct one, for instance. That sets my teeth on edge. The discounting of human life and the way some people act as if a baby is something other than a living human being sets my teeth on edge. The holier-than-thou attitude that some people may have their views and yet JUDGE others for having a different one sets my teeth on edge.

 

I sincerely thank the women who chose SR for sharing thier stories. God bless you. I hope you received extensive counseling to deal with the resulting feelings.

I am PRO CHOICE, therefore support SR. I can empathize with those whose faith lead them to oppose it. Honestly I commend you for having such strong beliefs. I personally am more of a logical thinker. Logic is the faith I lean on in making hard decisions. I hope those religious faithful people can empathize with me.

We faced fertility issues. Our problem was miscarriages. I had 5. We consulted with a doc who suggested IVF instead of Clomid which wasn't working. We chose to stick with the Clomid. Partly because we didn't want to have to make the Sr choice. Our doc told us twins were very common with Clomid use, & triplets were a possibility. We were comfortable with these chances. It turned out my miscarriages where a result of a med I was taking to control my epilepsy. I switched meds & successfully carried my boys to 37 weeks.

I have to add that adoption is not a cure all option. I gave up a child 17 years ago. I received extensive counseling throughout my pregnancy. I had to have an emergency c-section because he was breech. He ended up suffering from Downs. I knew I couldn't deal with raising a healthy child, much less a special needs child. I did alot of praying. Hoping that God would watch over him. It was a closed adoption so I have no knowledge of his life. I still occasionally need to see a counselor, 17 years later, because of depression resulting from this adoption. I have said in the past that not every women is capable of making either choice. For some abortion/SR is the best choice & for some adoption is the best. Either way I believe the woman lives with severe emotional difficulties resulting from either choice. I beleive to question thier decision can lead to more depression & possibily them questioning if thier choice was the right one.

 

I know this is off topic, but I just want to thank you for your story... especially as an adoptive Mom. I thank you for the amazing and difficult choice you made, and I am sure his parents thank you too. I am eternally grateful to my son's bmom for her gift to us.

 

Wow, I tried to lighten the mood with the K-Fed comment, but I just have to say, I am amazed at some of the people I get to know on this board. I only had to consider SR for a short time and for me it was decided, but those of you who have made that choice, my heart goes out to you. Those of you who made other choices such as adoption, my heart goes out to you also. I would never judge anyone for these choices, because I have never had to make either decision for real. Thank you for sharing...

 

quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer P:

Here is an article about a woman who decided to go from triplets to a singleton because "she just couldn't have 3"... http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/coffin200407210831.asp


wow, that is one of the worst things I have ever heard...i really dont know what to say after reading this article other than I find it very disturbing

 

I can see where people would be against s/r bc of people like that woman. That I can honestly understand.
But being against it when people do it for medical reasons (which it is done more for medical reasons than any other reason)....I will not understand.

 

Wow, I just saw this thread. I am astounded at the ignorance (meaning 'lack of knowledge') in this thread in regard to infertility, IVF, HOM and SR. I really wish people would do their research before throwing out "facts" and opinions based on those "facts".

Just a couple of QUICK points before getting the girls out of bed:

1. SR is most often performed for quads and higher
2. IVF patients actually have a better chance at NOT having HOM than other IF treatment patients
3. IVF patients do less SRs than other IF treatment patients
4. The Mcauley (sp?) HOMs were the result of IUIs, not IVF


I also agree with the comment that someone made that the reason you hear about those people who carry quads and higher so much is because it's so RARE. They usually LOSE the entire pg.

I agree, too, that UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN IN THOSE SHOES, you cannot possibly know for sure what your reaction would be. I've known a couple of people who were absolutely DEAD SET AGAINST SR only to end up with quads or quints and have to reduce to save their lives and the lives of some of those babies.

And, yes, several of these posts have exuded judgementalism (I know that's probably not a word LOL) and I have learned probably more than I wanted to know about several people.