where do you stand on selective reduction?

I cant read the article. It will make me cry. I am sorry for those who had to choose SR, as your only way. I can only say it goes against my beliefs and I could not choose it. I cant support any type of abortion. However I do not think I am better than you in anyway. I just think its a sad thing to have to happen..for both mother and child/ren.

Many HUGS to all of you!!
Brandy

 

quote:
Originally posted by Cassie05:
I did put my life and my babies lifes at risk, if we were meant to die we would have, like my daughter did. i didnt ask for it, I didnt want it to happen but it did. And no I dont believe that every medical procedure out there is ok by God. I believe he allows us as humans to make choices in our lives to which we will be held accountable for


What if I said that this is incredibley selfish and I would NEVER risk leaving my children motherless.

Would that be judgmental?

That feels the same to me as If you had or would have SR you are wrong.

My point about the heartbeat is not that your daughter wasn't alive, or that I didn't feel attachment to my children in utero.... It is too say it should an incredibly short sight and incorrect biological view to say anything with a heartbeat is alive. Heart cells have beats...alive? hmmm. Would I mind dumping a petri-dish of heart cells into a garbage can? No. A petri dish of human embryos BEFORE they have a heartbeat? YES. (I would use them for stem cell research )

 

quote:
Originally posted by kma13:
quote:
Originally posted by Cassie05:
I did put my life and my babies lifes at risk, if we were meant to die we would have, like my daughter did. i didnt ask for it, I didnt want it to happen but it did. And no I dont believe that every medical procedure out there is ok by God. I believe he allows us as humans to make choices in our lives to which we will be held accountable for


What if I said that this is incredibley selfish and I would NEVER risk leaving my children motherless.

Would that be judgmental?

That feels the same to me as If you had or would have SR you are wrong.

My point about the heartbeat is not that your daughter wasn't alive, or that I didn't feel attachment to my children in utero.... It is too say it should an incredibly short sight and incorrect biological view to say anything with a heartbeat is alive. Heart cells have beats...alive? hmmm. Would I mind dumping a petri-dish of heart cells into a garbage can? No. A petri dish of human embryos BEFORE they have a heartbeat? YES. (I would use them for stem cell research )

My only reply to this..is what GOD has said to everyone.

Jeremiah 1:5

5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

A baby is a living person at conception. God knew us before conception.

Brandy

 

I honestly don't know what I would do if faced with the decision. So many things would have to be considered before making that decision.

Can someone please educate me. How do you chose which one or ones to get rid of? Is it random or is there some way of telling which are the best to keep? I hope my question doesn't sound too harsh.

 

quote:
Originally posted by kma13:
quote:
Originally posted by Cassie05:
I did put my life and my babies lifes at risk, if we were meant to die we would have, like my daughter did. i didnt ask for it, I didnt want it to happen but it did. And no I dont believe that every medical procedure out there is ok by God. I believe he allows us as humans to make choices in our lives to which we will be held accountable for


What if I said that this is incredibley selfish and I would NEVER risk leaving my children motherless.

Would that be judgmental?

That feels the same to me as If you had or would have SR you are wrong.

My point about the heartbeat is not that your daughter wasn't alive, or that I didn't feel attachment to my children in utero.... It is too say it should an incredibly short sight and incorrect biological view to say anything with a heartbeat is alive. Heart cells have beats...alive? hmmm. Would I mind dumping a petri-dish of heart cells into a garbage can? No. A petri dish of human embryos BEFORE they have a heartbeat? YES. (I would use them for stem cell research )

Alot of people do think it was selfish but I had peace about my decision whereas I would not have had peace to end one of their lives. I was even told not to get pregnant for at least 2 years but again dh and I both had peace in our hearts that if God wanted us to have more children then we would. 4 months after Kaitlyn died I was pregnant with twins. Was my peri happy? No. Did I care? No. Our decision was based on how we feel God is in control. Hes taken a child from us and could have easily done it again but there was no way I was going to make that decision. Having lost a child, there is no way I was willing to make the decision to lose another just because a doctor didnt think my body could handle it or just because they thought something was wrong with M. They were wrong, I had a faith and we all came through.

Compare the life of a baby to heart cells in a petri dish all you want, you can never make me or my family or any other person grieving the loss of their child to miscarriage or stillbirth believe that a baby (or fetus as people like to call them) with a heartbeat is not alive.

 

quote:
Originally posted by All4Megan&Kayleigh:
I honestly don't know what I would do if faced with the decision. So many things would have to be considered before making that decision.

Can someone please educate me. How do you chose which one or ones to get rid of? Is it random or is there some way of telling which are the best to keep? I hope my question doesn't sound too harsh.


before our IUI's I did LOTS of research. S/R is usually done but a small number of hosipitals around the country to insure the best possible care for mom and fetuses. The do high level ultrasound of all fetuses and then select out any that look to have problems. If all seem to be equal they choose the fetuses furthest from the cervix in order to protect the ones left. Many clinics will not reduce to one and some will not reduce triplets.

I am only comparing fetuses to heart cells because some here said that it was a fact than anything with a heartbeat is alive. It isn't if you believe life starts at conception well those cells don't 'beat' so if we are using heartbeat as the defining line then the argument doesn't make sense. Heartbeat = alive? Conception= alive? NO HEARTBEAT AT CONCEPTION. Which is it?

I too have suffered a miscarriage I still maintain it was an unviable fetus.


Brandy, your response was very understanding thank you for posting a personal opinion and *hugs* and not a blanket value judgment.

 

Kellie, thanks for answering my question.

It must be an incredibly hard decision to make.

 

quote:
Our decision was based on how we feel God is in control.


Someone already mentioned this, but I feel it bears repeating. I am always amazed at this kind of remark (which not only Cassie but many people have used). To me, it is a shocking hypocrisy.

These women say they will leave everything in God's hands and He is in control? What about when infertility was an issue? Were they content to let God be in control, then? No, apparently not.

When one uses any type of technology to interfere with reproduction, whether by using fertility assistance or SR or abortion, then, in my view, one is pro-choice. These procedures are all parts of the same whole. They all have the same moral value. If one condemns SR or abortion, then one must also condemn assisted reproduction.

For the record, I am pro-choice and I do not condemn any of these procedures. They have all been developed to alleviate suffering and improve lives and in my opinion, they all have positive moral values when properly used.

THank you bkimberly and 4jsinPa for your personal stories. I know you did not only what was best and most life-affirming, but you also did what was the only choice.

 

quote:
Can someone please educate me. How do you chose which one or ones to get rid of? Is it random or is there some way of telling which are the best to keep? I hope my question doesn't sound too harsh.



Most drs want you to have a cvs test first to see if there are any problems. Mine only covered cvs of the two babies we would be keeping. We were told by cvs ours were both healthy boys. They then look at the placement of the babies and were they are. Not necessarily away from the cervix but just best positioned to get to. We don't know what happened with ours as we ended up with girl/boy not the two boys we were told, so I always wonder if McKenna was supposed to be reduced. I also had some complications with the s/r which made it even worse but we don't know which ones they actually ended up doing.

quote:
Alot of people do think it was selfish but I had peace about my decision whereas I would not have had peace to end one of their lives. I was even told not to get pregnant for at least 2 years but again dh and I both had peace in our hearts that if God wanted us to have more children then we would. 4 months after Kaitlyn died I was pregnant with twins. Was my peri happy? No. Did I care? No. Our decision was based on how we feel God is in control. Hes taken a child from us and could have easily done it again but there was no way I was going to make that decision. Having lost a child, there is no way I was willing to make the decision to lose another just because a doctor didnt think my body could handle it or just because they thought something was wrong with M. They were wrong, I had a faith and we all came through.


You have been through one of the worst grief's there is and I can't imagine it. I don't know that I would have made the same decision as you...but I just don't know bc I have never had to go through what you did. I could never judge you putting your life in danger for your children. I personally couldn't at the time bc I had two other children who needed me too.

 

quote:
Originally posted by niftywriter:

These women say they will leave everything in God's hands and He is in control? What about when infertility was an issue? Were they content to let God be in control, then? No, apparently not.




Ouch, that hurts. I don't agree with you here. Some of our bodies have failed us. Some of us need help to get pregnant. God is still in control. If he wants a life to result in the Assisted Reproduction, then a life will result. Not all assisted reproduction results in a child being born. I know many women who have had failed attempts. Therefore, IMO, God is in control. Does this mean my children are against God's will just because I needed a little help to get pregnant? No, I think not!

Kind of like cancer. People choose to have surgery, chemo, or radiation. These things are a help to the body that has failed the person. Sometimes these interventions work, sometimes they don't. God is in control.

 

I have no idea where I stand since I haven't faced it. But I know that I don't equate it with abortion. Abortion is ending a pregnany. SR is trying to save a pregnancy.

quote:
No drs don't know how a body will react to pregnancy on the first one. In my posts I have never said anything about FIRST pregnancies. I have been talking about LAST CHANCES. My SIL (brothers wife) didn't have to do IVF, but she did have 5 or 6 spontaneous abortions do to an incompetent cervix. I seen the pain and suffering that she had to endure each time. Can you imagine carrying a pregnancy to 20 or so wks only to have it repeatedly end?


Some years ago in Los Angeles, a colleague and his wife went through this exact scenario. They married in their 30s and used fertility (their first, only and last shot due to finances) to get pregnant. The wife originally conceived quads. After much hearthache, they decided to reduce to twins. They knew this was going to be their only pregnancy, so they decided that the odds were better with twins. She had PTL starting fairly early and the babies were born at about 28 weeks (about 3 months early). There is no way she would have been able to carry quads. The babies were very sick and one almost died. They were adament that the reduction saved the lives of their twins. They always called the two other babies "angels" for giving their brothers the chance to live.

 

quote:
Originally posted by niftywriter:
quote:
Our decision was based on how we feel God is in control.


Someone already mentioned this, but I feel it bears repeating. I am always amazed at this kind of remark (which not only Cassie but many people have used). To me, it is a shocking hypocrisy.

These women say they will leave everything in God's hands and He is in control? What about when infertility was an issue? Were they content to let God be in control, then? No, apparently not.

When one uses any type of technology to interfere with reproduction, whether by using fertility assistance or SR or abortion, then, in my view, one is pro-choice. These procedures are all parts of the same whole. They all have the same moral value. If one condemns SR or abortion, then one must also condemn assisted reproduction.

For the record, I am pro-choice and I do not condemn any of these procedures. They have all been developed to alleviate suffering and improve lives and in my opinion, they all have positive moral values when properly used.

THank you bkimberly and 4jsinPa for your personal stories. I know you did not only what was best and most life-affirming, but you also did what was the only choice.

Um..totally different things here. One is to bring or make life..and one is taking life away. God doesnt tell us NOT to make life..he tells us not to take life in the Bible. I dont see it as the same thing at all. I had faith in God..no matter what fertility treatments I had to do..I wasnt going to get pregnant until God wanted me too..or if he wanted me too. If I got pregnant with 6 or more..i wouldnt have taken any of them away..I would have let him if he choose too.

Totally different things.

Brandy

 

quote:
(or fetus as people like to call them)


Okay, "fetus" is just a scientific term indicating a specific phase of development. It is not some sneaky way to not call it a baby. If we call a new baby an "infant" and an older baby a "toddler," we are not saying they aren't also "babies." I am not sure where this idea comes from that "fetus" is some plan by the pro-choice side to make it "not a baby." It's just a scientific term: embryo, fetus, infant. It's only a more specifically descriptive term for the baby in question, just like infant/toddler/preschooler/gradeschooler are more specific descriptions of the baby/child in question.

I have a high-schooler, a middle-schooler and two preschoolers. They were all babies, and they are all children. I have two boys and two girls. To say that my baby is a girl does not mean I no longer think she is a baby. It just helps describe her to the person asking. Fetus describes to the doctor/parents the development of the baby in utero. That's all. It is not meant to take away the baby-ness of the baby. I have never heard this particular connotation for "fetus," that it means "not a baby," before several references in this thread.

 

Ruby, thanks for explaining that so well. That was something I've been noticing, too.


quote:
Um..totally different things here. One is to bring or make life..and one is taking life away. God doesnt tell us NOT to make life..he tells us not to take life in the Bible. I dont see it as the same thing at all.



I would like to point out that, in fact, the BIble says both DO NOT KIll...and Go Ahead and Kill. There are countless pasages where "God" tells "his people" to go ahead and kill other people until 'not one living thing' is left (please refer to the story of Joshua for just one of many examples)....

This is one of the things that always amazes me about people who claim to be devout followers of "God's teaching". The relativism, which allows them to do what they want (using science to thwart God's will: MY case is DIFFERENT), but which they also use to condemn what others do (if YOUR body is failing you, I condemn you for using the same science to reduce and save the pregnancy...MY failing body is allowed to use AR to conceive and have a baby, but YOUR failing body is not allowed to use SR to maintain a pregnancy and have a baby). The cruelty, utter lack of compassion or justice and the sheer convenience of this attitude just shocks me every time I read it or see it.


To me, people who have used AR (assisted reproduction) have used technology to get what they want and are on exactly the same moral ground as people who use SR and abortion. They can rationalise it all they want, but that is what it boils down to. If one believes that "God" gave us the ability to fiddle with fertility and create babies, then it also stands to reason that "God" enabled us to fiddle with fecundity and preserve the pregnancies that result.

 

I have went back and forth on whether I even wanted to post in this thread at all, but I decided I would let you know what I went through. I did fertility treatments to conceive my babies and I thought I was against SR as many of you do. I was told at my first ultrasound that I was pregnant with 5, I was very scared but I wanted all of them and was willing to try to carry them all. When I went for my second ultrasound we were shocked to find out there was actually 7. I was crushed I had been trying to get pregnant for many years with no success and now I was being faced with the worst decision of my life! I did choose SR and I know I would not have any children if I had made any other choice. I went into PTL at 24 weeks and was on bedrest until my babies were born at 30 weeks. There is not a day that goes by that I don't think about what happened but I know it was the best choice for my family. There is only one person who ever delivered 7, most others who tried lost them all. Thank You niftywriter for your last post! Maybe you truly do know what you would do in my shoes but I thought I knew too. I never thought I would be put in this situation all I wanted was a baby and I am thankful for the two that I have and I will always have the other 5 in my heart.


Kerriann

 

quote:
Originally posted by niftywriter:
Ruby, thanks for explaining that so well. That was something I've been noticing, too.


quote:
Um..totally different things here. One is to bring or make life..and one is taking life away. God doesnt tell us NOT to make life..he tells us not to take life in the Bible. I dont see it as the same thing at all.



I would like to point out that, in fact, the BIble says both DO NOT KIll...and Go Ahead and Kill. There are countless pasages where "God" tells "his people" to go ahead and kill other people until 'not one living thing' is left (please refer to the story of Joshua for just one of many examples)....

This is one of the things that always amazes me about people who claim to be devout followers of "God's teaching". The relativism, which allows them to do what they want (using science to thwart God's will: MY case is DIFFERENT), but which they also use to condemn what others do (if YOUR body is failing you, I condemn you for using the same science to reduce and save the pregnancy...MY failing body is allowed to use AR to conceive and have a baby, but YOUR failing body is not allowed to use SR to maintain a pregnancy and have a baby). The cruelty, utter lack of compassion or justice and the sheer convenience of this attitude just shocks me every time I read it or see it.


To me, people who have used AR (assisted reproduction) have used technology to get what they want and are on exactly the same moral ground as people who use SR and abortion. They can rationalise it all they want, but that is what it boils down to. If one believes that "God" gave us the ability to fiddle with fertility and create babies, then it also stands to reason that "God" enabled us to fiddle with fecundity and preserve the pregnancies that result.

Renne,
You are so entitled to your opinion. Thanks for sharing it. I know what I have done in getting help creating my children was God's will and am so glad you will not be making the final judgement for me. I never will and never have supported abortion or SR which in my beliefs is taking a life..and using AR is creating life, so I dont get the whole thing you are talking about..but you are entitled to your opinions no matter what I think of them. I think some of the things you have said are very hurtful for anyone who has had to use AR to help get their babies. So let me just bow out of any more conversations with you on this subject...you will never win with me and I will never win with you.


Brandy

 

quote:
Originally posted by niftywriter:
The cruelty, utter lack of compassion or justice and the sheer convenience of this attitude just shocks me every time I read it or see it.



Thank you. That was very well said - the whole post.

 

[/QUOTE]


you will never win with me and I will never win with you.


Brandy[/QUOTE]

The sad fact to me is that you feel the need to "win". Why can't you just accept that you have different beleif systems & move on?

 

quote:
where do YOU stand on selective reduction?

It is not something I could do, but it is not my place to judge others that have had to make this difficult decision.
The lady mentioned in the article disgusts me because she seemed not to have a care in the world for those babies, I am positive that the majority of women that have made the decision to do SR did not take the decision as lightly as that lady, (((HUGS))) to them.

 

quote:
and am so glad you will not be making the final judgement for me.


I honestly feel extremely sorry for you that your world view is so sadly skewed. I have no wish ever to judge you, nor will I ever do so. The cruelty and judgementalism of the religion with which you identify has convinced you to expect the same cruelty and judgement in others. I am so sorry that this has happened to you. I suggest to you that it is people who think like you do from whom you have the most to fear. Someone like me, and many other posters in this thread (but by no means the majority, sadly) would not condemn you but would say, "You have used the gift of knowledge which God has given to us all to bring about your heart's desire, and that is a good thing".

THank you, Kerriann and Jennie...I only tried to write what I see as the truth.

 

The woman in the article was portrayed as disgusting. I would like to read her actual article and not just the bits and pieces this other person used to make their point...
That being said, most of us that have had to face SR have had to face fertility issues. If you haven't experienced inferitily you have no idea the feelings we have experienced. You can think you understand, but you don't. I have never wanted anything so badly as I wanted to be pregnant. I almost left my husband over it because I felt like he deserved someone who could give him children. You have doctors poking and prodding you and there is no shame. They question everything, from your past sexual history to your current. You at times feel like it is all your fault. Maybe if you hadn't done this or that, you could get pregnant. You pray to God, Allah, Buddha, whomever will listen. I once made a deal with God that if he brought my husband home safe from Iraq I wouldn't ask him for kids...yet, I still did. It is just something that eats at you. I tried so many drugs, I was human pin cushion, but on top of that I did chiropractic care (some say it helps), I lit candles, I prayed to St. Geraurd (sp) everyday. That disappointment is a feeling I will never forget.
I will also never forget seeing my little ones on that first ultrasound and being so excited! It still makes me cry thinking back! Then within 10 minutes of feeling that happiness being told you might have to choose...it is the most heartbreaking feeling, even more so then the infertility. I walked around like a zombie until we saw the specialist about it. I prayed to everyone again, made deals, and was terrified that I would I make the wrong decision. When we saw the specialist and the third one was no longer viable there was relief, and immediate fear for the other two. To alleviate that fear we heard our jellybeans heartbeats for the first time! Dave and I hugged and cried and said thank you to God, Allah, Buddha, St. Geraurd, etc whoever was listening.
So believe in what you will, but until you are faced with this situation you don't know what is right and wrong, you think you do, but you don't.

For anyone that wants insight into one person's journey through infertility PM me, I have my story all typed up...I just need someone to proof it...any takers?

 

I will PM you bkimberly. I happen to be an editor and maybe I can help you with your proofreading!

 

quote:
Originally posted by bkimberly:
The woman in the article was portrayed as disgusting. I would like to read her actual article and not just the bits and pieces this other person used to make their point...
That being said, most of us that have had to face SR have had to face fertility issues. If you haven't experienced inferitily you have no idea the feelings we have experienced. You can think you understand, but you don't. I have never wanted anything so badly as I wanted to be pregnant. I almost left my husband over it because I felt like he deserved someone who could give him children. You have doctors poking and prodding you and there is no shame. They question everything, from your past sexual history to your current. You at times feel like it is all your fault. Maybe if you hadn't done this or that, you could get pregnant. You pray to God, Allah, Buddha, whomever will listen. I once made a deal with God that if he brought my husband home safe from Iraq I wouldn't ask him for kids...yet, I still did. It is just something that eats at you. I tried so many drugs, I was human pin cushion, but on top of that I did chiropractic care (some say it helps), I lit candles, I prayed to St. Geraurd (sp) everyday. That disappointment is a feeling I will never forget.
I will also never forget seeing my little ones on that first ultrasound and being so excited! It still makes me cry thinking back! Then within 10 minutes of feeling that happiness being told you might have to choose...it is the most heartbreaking feeling, even more so then the infertility. I walked around like a zombie until we saw the specialist about it. I prayed to everyone again, made deals, and was terrified that I would I make the wrong decision. When we saw the specialist and the third one was no longer viable there was relief, and immediate fear for the other two. To alleviate that fear we heard our jellybeans heartbeats for the first time! Dave and I hugged and cried and said thank you to God, Allah, Buddha, St. Geraurd, etc whoever was listening.
So believe in what you will, but until you are faced with this situation you don't know what is right and wrong, you think you do, but you don't.

For anyone that wants insight into one person's journey through infertility PM me, I have my story all typed up...I just need someone to proof it...any takers?


So very well put! You brought tears to my eyes. Dealing with infertility leaves such a deep scar and I just can't imagine the scar left for one who faces infertility plus being faced with possible SR.

 

quote:
Originally posted by rubyturquoise:
quote:
(or fetus as people like to call them)


Okay, "fetus" is just a scientific term indicating a specific phase of development. It is not some sneaky way to not call it a baby. If we call a new baby an "infant" and an older baby a "toddler," we are not saying they aren't also "babies." I am not sure where this idea comes from that "fetus" is some plan by the pro-choice side to make it "not a baby." It's just a scientific term: embryo, fetus, infant. It's only a more specifically descriptive term for the baby in question, just like infant/toddler/preschooler/gradeschooler are more specific descriptions of the baby/child in question.

I have a high-schooler, a middle-schooler and two preschoolers. They were all babies, and they are all children. I have two boys and two girls. To say that my baby is a girl does not mean I no longer think she is a baby. It just helps describe her to the person asking. Fetus describes to the doctor/parents the development of the baby in utero. That's all. It is not meant to take away the baby-ness of the baby. I have never heard this particular connotation for "fetus," that it means "not a baby," before several references in this thread.

I really believe that alot of doctors refer to a baby as a fetus in hopes that the parents wont get to attached. I see it not as just a medical discription but as a way to numb ones self from teh reality of life. THat is my opinion. You have no idea what its like to go into the hospital because your baby hadnt moved all day, have them not be able to find the heartbeat, have teh doctor come in, do an ultrasound and be told the heart was not beating. THen to go into the operating room, be cut open and have my lifeless baby taken from my body, holding a little girl, so perfect, even bigger than my son was at birth but she was dead. The term used was fetal demise, no birth certificate, nothing. Just told by the doctors they didnt know why "the fetus" died. Not a baby, but refered to as a fetus. I have a living 27 weeker, and I have a dead 27 weeker, but one was a baby according to the doctors, one was a fetus. Being told, its ok at least you werent further along , a least you can try again. Yeah go through that and tell me why you dont like the fact that your child was dismissed because she was "just a fetus".

Dont like my opinions, call me judgemental, I really dont care. You wont change me and I will not change my opinions so they fit better with the world. I dont care if you think Im closeminded. My family lives as they feel fit. Over and over people like to say not to be judgemental because God says not to but there are also times when he says to judge. SO whatever. I never once said I was judging anyone just stating what I feel is right or wrong. And no I dont know anything able fertility problems but I know what its like to have a funeral for my child. Yes I had a child beforehand, but that doesnt make it any easier.

Im tired of this, really, Im tired of some people being able to express their opinions but the rest of us are told we are too judgemental.

Do me a favor, go to Kaitlyns site and see what I have gone through, maybe then everyone can see why I am against SR/abortion. Some wont get it, but alot has happened in my life that has molded me into what I am today. Most have no idea but someone who was once very close to me got prego with twins and told me 2 weeks after Kaitlyn died, she wanted me to pray she would miscarry her babies. Yeah that was great, I was sitting there with empty arms while shes telling me she wants hers to die when all I wanted was to have a baby with me again. I dont like what she did, but I have continued to be there for her, no Im not as close as I was with her before but its not something I can emotionally handle, just as I couldnt emotionally handle taking a childs life

A baby is a baby at conception, like it or not, that is my view

 

quote:
I really believe that alot of doctors refer to a baby as a fetus in hopes that the parents wont get to attached.


Its a scientific term, "In humans, the fetal stage is the from the end of the third month until birth." They aren't trying to keep people from being attached, they are using a medical term. I believe, as someone else posted earlier in this thread, that much like a baby is also a child...a fetus is also a baby.

Hugs to you Cassie and thank you to the others who shared their SR stories

 

Cassie05,
I can't imagine what you went through, I am sorry for your loss.
kim

 

Yes, I am sorry your doctors were not more sensitive when your daughter died, they should have tried to remember not to use professional terms when speaking to a grieving mother, and certainly no one should ever have said, "at least you weren't further along." That's just a horrible thing to say, no matter whether you're saying "baby" or "fetus." I did not lose a baby that far along, but I do have two losses, and I had infertility issues as well.

However, doctors say "fetus" because that's the proper medical terminology. We all have work-related jargon that is not commonly used by people in other fields. Doctors say "fetus," because it has a specific medical developmental meaning. Not because they don't want people to be attached to their babies. In fact, they do want people to be attached, because it's bad for the baby to have parents who aren't attached to it.

I agree, however, that your doctor needed a course in bedside manner, in parental grief and in common courtesy.

 

I think this thread is turning into who has the biggest badge of honor. It seems like people are trying to convince each other who has had it worst, was it those who had to choose SR? Have a still born baby? Go through infertility? The fact is we all go through heart ache and it affects us all differently. I am posting this essay in the hopes that it will help put some closure to this debate and allow us to remember what we all have in common and how LUCKY we all are:

A Little Perspective

A new mom, awake every three hours at night with her first baby, thought she had her hands full - and she did. Then she met...
A new mom of twins, exhausted from being awake doing double duty while trying to master the art of feeding two at the same time, thought she had her hands full - and she did. Then she met...
A new mom of triplets, learning to juggle three babies with only two arms, while dealing with intense sleep-deprivation, thought she had her hands full - and she did. Then she met...
A mom of a new set of triplets who had a toddler still in diapers and several school aged children, spreading herself in many different directions at once, while dealing with intense sleep deprivation, thought she had her hands full - and she did. Then she learned of...
A mom of who just gave birth to her second set of triplets within two years, still changing diapers of a trio of toddlers, while dealing with sleep-deprivation, with a bigger life change than she could ever have imagined, thought she had her hands full - and she did. Then she saw the program about...
A mom who just gave birth to her 16th child, adding to her 15 children all under the age of 18, juggling so many different tasks to keep her busy family cared for, thought she had her hands full - and she did....
Each of the moms thought they had their hands full, and then they met... a woman who would never know the joy of carrying, giving birth to and nurturing her very own baby, and each of those moms were glad they had their hands full.
Perspective is everything.

--author unknown

 

quote:
Originally posted by lilnhanksmommy:
I think this thread is turning into who has the biggest badge of honor. It seems like people are trying to convince each other who has had it worst, was it those who had to choose SR? Have a still born baby? Go through infertility? The fact is we all go through heart ache and it affects us all differently. I am posting this essay in the hopes that it will help put some closure to this debate and allow us to remember what we all have in common and how LUCKY we all are:




Im hardly trying to say who has it worst, stating fact, again back to the whole where do we stand on SR. Im not trying to win anyone over just explaining why I feel the way I do and that HAS to include my story, what has happened to me has completely affected where I stand in life. I wasnt even a christian when my son was born, my life and views were completely changed by my experiences. I know people have it worse than me, it goes on and on. No one has it the worst, life stinks and life is good, you cant just have happy go-lucky wonderful times all your life, it doesnt work that way

 

I feel as though this thread went off topic a bit.

Somehow we ended up comparing the loss of a baby at 27 weeks with reducing babies at 13 weeks. Its really different. 27 weeks should be a viable baby and what you went through was horrible, especially having a dr deal with it so badly. Any mom going through that deserves so much more and I am sorry you did not get that.

I guess when I think of s/r I only think of HOM. Thats why I feel like we went off topic. I guess I am not sure why you feel so attacked. You just lost a child...there was probably nothing anyone could ever do that would convince you that s/r is right, and thats okay. You have every right to believe what you believe and think that. If I had been in your shoes I don't know that I would have been able to make the decision I did.

There are so many aspects of reducing a pregnancy and many different reasons. We are never going to convince each other to believe that the others is better. But it is good to "talk" it out. Another board I post on has a debate board just for these things but in the end everyone has to agree to disagree. Maybe thats what we just have to decide before people too many people get angry and/or hurt...

 

quote:
Originally posted by 4jsinPA:



I guess when I think of s/r I only think of HOM.


The reason I brought up Kaitlyn is because I was explaining why I told the doctors no. I only got pregnant with twins after her and was told, based on what they thought what was wrong with M and based on my history that we should chose to only have B. Obviously the doctors were wrong and even with a crappy history we carried a pregnancy further than my singletons. So in my case it was suggested even with only 2 babies.

 

quote:
Originally posted by niftywriter:
quote:
and am so glad you will not be making the final judgement for me.


I honestly feel extremely sorry for you that your world view is so sadly skewed. I have no wish ever to judge you, nor will I ever do so. The cruelty and judgementalism of the religion with which you identify has convinced you to expect the same cruelty and judgement in others. I am so sorry that this has happened to you. I suggest to you that it is people who think like you do from whom you have the most to fear. Someone like me, and many other posters in this thread (but by no means the majority, sadly) would not condemn you but would say, "You have used the gift of knowledge which God has given to us all to bring about your heart's desire, and that is a good thing".

THank you, Kerriann and Jennie...I only tried to write what I see as the truth.

Renee,
I do ask you to not feel sorry for me. I have asked you before with arguments, debates and other things. I dont need your pity. I only ask that if you need to say anything else to me the way you have in these posts you do it in PM. I am getting really tired of this with you...I am sorry you dislike me and my beliefs so much. But the last thing I would is attack your beliefs with pity...

Brandy

 

quote:
Originally posted by niftywriter:
quote:
Our decision was based on how we feel God is in control.


Someone already mentioned this, but I feel it bears repeating. I am always amazed at this kind of remark (which not only Cassie but many people have used). To me, it is a shocking hypocrisy.

These women say they will leave everything in God's hands and He is in control? What about when infertility was an issue? Were they content to let God be in control, then? No, apparently not.

When one uses any type of technology to interfere with reproduction, whether by using fertility assistance or SR or abortion, then, in my view, one is pro-choice. These procedures are all parts of the same whole. They all have the same moral value. If one condemns SR or abortion, then one must also condemn assisted reproduction.

For the record, I am pro-choice and I do not condemn any of these procedures. They have all been developed to alleviate suffering and improve lives and in my opinion, they all have positive moral values when properly used.

THank you bkimberly and 4jsinPa for your personal stories. I know you did not only what was best and most life-affirming, but you also did what was the only choice.

To respond to this in the simplest way

It is my belief that God is the creator of all life. No matter the method. So Yes, He is in control when he leads a couple to use a fertility specialist to become parents. I don't know that I would say I was content to have to go down this road. It was not an easy road.

Fertility assistance or SR or abortion are all medical procedures but only one creates life the others end it. For this reason I am against the last two -- I am pro-life. You can only speak for yourself and say "If one condemns SR or abortion, then one must also condemn assisted reproduction." not true you cannot speak for others.

 

Not sure if this thread currently needs a reminder, but I feel it's as good a time as any to remind everyone that personally-addressed posts are not permitted here at Twinstuff. Please also keep in mind that a thread like this one can be particularly emotional and for that reason may be better suited for the Cornucopia forum instead of Parent's Club.